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Wondergirl · Mar 17, 2010, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT777

It's not a symbolic sacrifice like the Lutherans hold

That is not what Lutherans believe, that it's symbolic.

arcura · Mar 17, 2010, 09:34 PM

Wondergirl,
Quite a few different denominations believe in the Holy Eucharist.
Most notable among the Protestants are the Lutherans and some Methodists.
Then there are the many eastern Orthodox Churches, the Anglicans and the various Episcopals.
That's way over 1 billion Christians that so believe.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 17, 2010, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Quite a few different denominations believe in the Holy Eucharist.
Most notable among the Protestants are the Lutherans and some Methodists.
Then there are the many eastern Orthodox Churches, the Anglicans and the various Episcopals.
That's way over 1 billion Christians that so believe.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

I'm a Lutheran preacher's kid, arcura. Lutherans do not believe in the Holy Eucharist in the same way that the Catholics do.

arcura · Mar 17, 2010, 09:46 PM

Wondergirl,
Oh yes they do.
That is where I learned it.
Lutherans believe that the blessed bread and wine do indeed become the body and blood of Jesus.
When I was president of our local Lutheran Sunday School I was told to teach that and I did.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777 · Mar 17, 2010, 09:47 PM

Maybe Uncle Backwards has been posting for me again. Let’s try this one more time.

Originally Posted by arcura

the Eucharist the bread and wine are consecrated and changed by the Holy Spirit into the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It is my understanding that only the RCC and its branches believe this.

I’m not so sure about which Person of the Trinity that does the ‘changing’, but we do believe that the consecrated Host is the ‘real presence’ of Christ; body, soul and Divinity. I’ve been told Lutherans hold it’s a symbolic sacrifice. On the other hand Catholics hold that it’s a literal continuation of same (real) sacrifice made by Christ.

“He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.”

A Eucharist that consumes, and becomes consuming, with every bite; because as Christ said, “as the living Father has sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, the same also shall live by me.” (Cf. John 6)

Changes are in red

Wondergirl · Mar 17, 2010, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Oh yes they do.
That is where I learned it.

ELCA or LCMS?

Lutherans believe that the blessed bread and wine do indeed become the body and blood of Jesus.

It's a tad more complicated than that.

arcura · Mar 17, 2010, 09:55 PM

Joe,
Perhaps some of the several Lutheran Churches believe the Eucharist changes are symbolic, But Luther insisted that in is indeed the body and blood of Jesus Christ and the Missouri Synod so teaches.
When I was president of the Sunday School I was instructed to teach and I did.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 17, 2010, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Luther insisted that in is indeed the body and blood of Jesus Christ and the Missouri Synod so teaches.

There is a fine line between what the LCMS teaches and what the RCC teaches. The RCC teaches that, with consecration, the wine and wafer change completely and permanently into the body and blood of Christ. The unused elements must be consumed or saved in a safe place until another Eucharist.

The LCMS teaches that the believer receives the body and blood of Christ spiritually in, with, and under the bread and wine at the time of consumption, but the elements are still bread and wine. Elements that have been consecrated but not used are destroyed.

P.S. LCMS churches have a pipe in a room near the altar. This pipe goes vertically into the ground. Consecrated but unused wine is poured down this pipe and back into the earth from which they came. The minister consecrates as many wafers as he thinks he will need. If anything, he will underestimate the figure. Thus, if he realizes he needs more at a service, he will do a quick consecration of more and then continue giving out Communion. Rarely does the minister have left-over consecrated wafers. If he does, they too are sent down the pipe and back into the earth.

arcura · Mar 17, 2010, 10:24 PM

Wondergirl,
Thanks for the fine line.
The body and blood if Christ IS still consumed either way.
Fred

Wondergirl · Mar 17, 2010, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Thanks for the fine line.
The body and blood if Christ IS still consumed either way.
Fred

Yes, in one (RCC) physically and in one (LCMS) spiritually.

classyT · Mar 18, 2010, 06:45 AM

Fred,

I believe the Lord Jesus told us to remember him in his death. The bread and the wine are symbols of his broken body.. (bread) and shed blood... ( wine). I believe there is power in remembering the Lord.. and I DO .Having said that... it is symbolic. It doesn't turn into anything once it enters the body. If you can show me in the Bible that it becomes more than it is... let me know. I have never even heard it called holy Eucharist.

Why don't I believe in it? The same reason I don't believe many things in the Catholic faith... it isn't in the word of God.

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 02:16 PM

classyT ,
Jesus SAID that the blessed bread and wine were and are his body and blood so they were and still are, NEVER were symbols.
I believe Jesus has the power to do that.
If you don't that is up to you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT · Mar 18, 2010, 03:43 PM

Fredrick,
How is it that you take Jesus words at the last supper as literally his body and blood but you don't take literally when the Bible records that James is the Lord's brother..

I do believe it is symbolic... we won't agree on this but we can agree that there is power in the spiritual realm when we partake it... can't we?

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 05:56 PM

classyT ,
Jesus had no blood brothers. The was NO word in Aramaic for bother. All male relatives were called what we today say cousins or brothers.
So that coves a lot of territory.
And when studying the bible we can see that those who are called brothers did have different parents than Mary as Joe has pointed out.
I hope that helps you understand my belief on that.
Please note that we do agree on about 95% of what scripture says and have some different interpretations or understanding on the little bit of about 5%.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Clough · Mar 18, 2010, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Clough,
What way?
The only way that it is taught as far as I know and that is the in the Eucharist the bread and wine are consecrated and changed by the Holy Spirit into the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
In some denominations they have what is called communion service which does not believe or teach that.
The word Eucharist means "give thanks" communion does not mean that.
So when I speak of the Eucharist it is in regard to the belief that a miracle takes place if done according to that dogma.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It's a matter of interpretation of the Scriptures, arcura. There is no one set way, nor correct way to interpret them.

Thanks!

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 09:46 PM

Clough,
Oh, but I believe that there is a correct way and that way is by The Church that Jesus established and gave the keys to heaven.
It is also The Church that was inspired and entrusted to promulgate the holy bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777 · Mar 18, 2010, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Clough,
Oh, but I believe that there is a correct way and that way is by The Church that Jesus established and gave the keys to heaven.
It is also The Church that was inspired and entrusted to promulgate the holy bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You said it for me. I would have added that logic wouldn't have a God of Truth demanding that we be One in faith and then turn around and say it's OK to have different sets of virtuous morals, e.g. like abortion is Ok for this person, multiple wives is OK for me, etc. This unity is scripturally mandated. Christ said speaking to His Apostles, “I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one.” John 17

arcura · Mar 18, 2010, 10:12 PM

JoeT,
Once again point well made and well said.
Thanks.
Now I'm off to bed. My bad back is really bad tonight.
Fred

Clough · Mar 19, 2010, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Clough,
Oh, but I believe that there is a correct way and that way is by The Church that Jesus established and gave the keys to heaven.
It is also The Church that was inspired and entrusted to promulgate the holy bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And, what is the "correct" way that you feel is right, arcura? Please note, that I used the word "feel" rather than "think". For me, and I'm sure, many others, it is a matter of interpretation...

Thanks!

arcura · Mar 19, 2010, 09:25 PM

Cloug
FEEL and THINK and KNOW that the correct way is as I said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred