[roxypox]

I've been following this discussion since it started and find it interesting, I'm going to try to join, LOL but I'm not quite sure yet of how relevant my post will be, so I hope you all have some patients.

I find that all of you have several interesting points, and TAL I really do agree with your post (all of it), but especially what you said about happiness; cause who cares about you being happy... no one really cares, and even if there are some who cares about it; well they can never really care about it the way you do. Personally I'm a big believer in letting go of things you can't control and grabbing a hold of what you can control (as I've said in several of the threads when it comes to both relationships, dating and personal growth)

Your own happiness falls under partial control (seeing as there are many factors that can contribute to your own happiness that is not under your control).

I also agree with Jake, I don't really find the conscept of the article that Inertia that confusing. But I must admit that I've been talking so much norwegian lately that I feel its hard for me to translate someone my thoughts into english, and hard find some of the words I'M looking for, so I hope you guys can bare with me.

To open yourself up is to risk rejection, as far as relationships go, and any interpersonal relationship as far as that goes. I have been blinded by obvious faults in people, and have been deeply hurt by their actions. I don't know if anybody ever gets good enough at understanding relationships to a point where they don't get hurt when they end.

Opening up is always a risk! And rejection, I think is something that we all want to avoid... on some level. I find that with some people I'm willing to run a bigger risk then what I do with others and after mulling it over, I think that comes back to the availability with in the person I'm dealing with. e.g. my closest friends, two of then in particular.. I'm willing to lay myself on the line to a huge degree with them, because no matter how naked I stand, I know they won't reject me or hurt me... the chance that they'll embrace me and give me a new set of clothing is much higher! While with the guy I've been sleeping with the past 9 months, I risk only as much as I have to with him at this point.

But then again, I'm very impulsive at heart, So out of the blue I often just do things without thinking and risk everything (or so it seems in hindsight)... cause in the last few years I've found that I'm at my best when I just do and not think!

I'd say we are all generally insecure as to how others perceive us to be. You could get all the positive vibes and cues coming at you, then realize that it was not sincere, and you read that particular person all wrong.

Personally I find that this applies to relationships you have, both close and obscure relationships... but maybe that's just me? I often feel that I can be insecure of how people perceive me when it comes to people I'm not that sure of; coworkers I don't know where I have, friends/acquaintances I'm unsure of... and especially my mom... but that's because my mom and I have never really had a good relationship.

But, how I wish I had the courage to answer someone when they asked me if they were doing anything wrong, or why people avoided them. I would like to think that I would muster the courage if I was asked flat out.

I feel that this depends on my relationship with the person... a coworker of mine was mad because 2 other people got promoted ahead of her, and when I talked to her about this I did want to say that she should consider what type of relationship she has with her superiors, and that she has a lot of sick days... I stuck with the sick days, and left out the rest... which I think might have been a good idea.

I have to admit though, that to tell someone why something they do is wrong etc... to point out a negative is always hard, cause I don't want to step on any toes, and I often have such a distance between myself and the issue that I can seem a bit cold and hard when I'm honest about things like this...

e.g. my best friend asked me a few months ago why she always attracts A-holes... She felt she comes of as confident and as self assured etc... when she told me how she sees herself, it clearly didn't match how I see her and how others speak of her...

Which of course brings me back to; how you see yourself doesn't always match how others see you... cause my friend often comes of as insecure and uncomfortable.. (although she is very different with me and matches the way she feels, because she trusts me)

[talaniman]

I will agree as betrayal is so much worse than being rejected as rejection is at least an honest expression of feelings, and betrayal takes some motives that are both guile and manipulation. But I think that once you make the choice/decision to pursue a particular goal or even a person, the chances are it could fail, for whatever reason, or it could succeed. I think how you handle whatever outcome that you face, is what will eventually define you, not only in your own eyes, but others as well.

I think that giving others the power to influence/motivate you is a choice as well, and I think choices/decisions must have as much reasonable facts as you can get. That's no guarantee of success, but it at least puts the risk factor in a better perspective. Then the decision to take a chance, can be weighed against the consequences of failure.

In relationships, I think the same thing goes double, as how we handle our own feelings is so crucial to evaluating the risk of being hurt, against the rewards of being cared for, as facts have to be gathered first, as feelings of another are only assumed, until we learn them through matching words and actions. But we all find out that the chances a relationship will be forever is slim at best until we learn to make better choices, and that still depends on the partner we chose. So many things to consider, it takes most of us many heartbreaking trials, experiences, and experiments to even get a clue. Perfection is darn hard, if its even possible for us humans, so we have to settle for happy sometimes.

[roxypox]

I personally think rejection is far less threatening than being taken advantage of. If I put myself out there and I am flat out rejected, I believe I have enough confidence to bounce back pretty easily (whether I need to make some personal modifications or not). However, to be taken advantage of means the other party didn't even care about my well being.

Betrayal is the ultimate crime (hence Dante) and I find that those who can do so without remorse are missing something very important to our humanity.

Personally, whenever I get burned, I question my intelligence and wonder if I have been cursed with some sort of childish naivety. I've been sitting on the fence of cynic and dreamer for a long time and I fear my inner cynic is going to win. That poor dreamer just can't catch a break.

After reading this post I realized that I also feel that way, to e taken advantage of and to be looked at as a naïve girl is probably the thing I fear more then rejection.. rejection to be is often more painful to my pride then me as a person (another nifty self-defense mechanism I have set up? Very likely?)

<i like what you say about betrayal being the ultimate crime, I think that's why I have issues relating to me mom and has a problem to trust her... she is the one who has betrayed me the most, and the most times.

I find that lately, I have become harder and harder to reach, i.e. I've grown a little cold and hard when it comes to people that can hurt me. I've taken my emotions (especially the ones connected to certain people) and I've buried them so deep, I can't even access them myself. A way of not getting burned? I think so...

Tal
I agree with many many things in your post!

And I think that you have reach something I see as critical when it comes to betrayal and rejection; betrayal is worse, cause like you said it takes on other motives, its also a form of rejection that reaches a whole other level then pure rejections.

I also like what you say about risking rejection, and it is ultimately the way you handle it that matters... if the rejection happens, then it happens, and how you handle it and carry yourself can ypou lead you on new paths and change you.

[inertia]

Well that's the real catch isn't it. Everyone's viewpoint is relative to how they know a certain person. I have some friends that think I'm nice, some who think I'm mean. There are many opposing views on my personality and I don't think I really act any differently.

As far as being happy. Your happiness may cause someone else's unhappiness. We do have a certain responsibility to each other on this planet. We tell someone who is unhappy in a relationship to leave, although they may be unhappy about something else and not know it. What if someone's father is unhappy being a father. What if someone deployed is unhappy sitting on their guard post. I'm not advocating staying in unhappy relationships, I'm just saying that our society has gotten a bit too concerned with their "own" happiness and it has caused a serious rift in our "community".

It used to take a village to raise a child, but not anymore. It takes 1 working parent. The problem is, the rest of the village can't be bothered because it doesn't make them happy.

Well, happiness is more than self gratification. There is also happiness in serving others. I don't know. Maybe because I'm the oldest child and I was always held responsible for my siblings or something. I spend a lot of time doing what is necessary or right instead of going off and partying all night for the sake of "happiness".

[talaniman]

Happiness is, being happy, and sharing it with someone who appreciates it, and is willing to share their happiness with you, and you really do appreciate it.

But first you have to know what makes you happy, and what makes others happy. I think that takes some very real investigations to find out what the real facts are. That to me implies work, whether you like it or not.

[roxypox]

Well that's the real catch isn't it. Everyone's viewpoint is relative to how they know a certain person. I have some friends that think I'm nice, some who think I'm mean. There are many opposing views on my personality and I don't think I really act any differently.

I think so too... you act the way you act... and that doesn't necessarily change, but everyone who knows you or meets you see you differently and they all like/dislike different things. Say that 5 of the people close to you like the same things about you... even though they like the same things they might have different reasons for doing so and see these things differently. (my take on it)

As far as being happy. Your happiness may cause someone else's unhappiness. We do have a certain responsibility to each other on this planet. We tell someone who is unhappy in a relationship to leave, although they may be unhappy about something else and not know it. What if someone's father is unhappy being a father. What if someone deployed is unhappy sitting on their guard post. I'm not advocating staying in unhappy relationships, I'm just saying that our society has gotten a bit too concerned with their "own" happiness and it has caused a serious rift in our "community".

I think so to, personally I wouldn't pursue something that would make me happy at every cost, but of course it depends what it is... if I work hard and go after a particular posision when it comes to school or work, and I get it. Well then it will make me happy, but it might make someone else unhappy... but I'd still do it. But to use another example if my best friend and I like the same person, I wouldn't pursue that person cause in the end the happiness I'd feel wouldn't be worth it at all. (maybe a silly example, but it was the only one I could think of.

Well, happiness is more than self gratification. There is also happiness in serving others. I don't know. Maybe because I'm the oldest child and I was always held responsible for my siblings or something. I spend a lot of time doing what is necessary or right instead of going off and partying all night for the sake of "happiness".

I feel that way to, and again it might be because I'm also the oldest sibling and I to have had a lot of responsibilities when it comes to my siblings.

[inertia]

Happiness is, being happy, and sharing it with someone who appreciates it, and is willing to share their happiness with you, and you really do appreciate it.

But first you have to know what makes you happy, and what makes others happy. I think that takes some very real investigations to find out what the real facts are. That to me implies work, whether you like it or not.

Absolutely.

[inertia]

I feel that way to, and again it might be because I'm also the oldest sibling and I to have had a lot of responsibilities when it comes to my siblings.

Yeah, my youngest sibling can't possibly relate. Whew, this has been quite the exercise. Personally speaking, I've chased dreams, worked hard in the real world and taken plenty of time off as well. My own happiness is derived from serving a greater purpose than myself. This of course, puts me in the cross hairs of selfish and manipulative people, but I'll just have to persevere. I'm no martyr. I have too much of an ego for that. I'm just responsible, pragmatic and I care about other people.

[J_9]

boarderline cookiness

. Chocolate chip cookiness? Or maybe cockiness?