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talaniman · Dec 2, 2009, 09:56 AM

Maybe because I thought if I love too much and too hard, there is no way for the other person not to love me back.

I was shocked why he didn't love me and immediately I started pushing and threatening him by saying I will leave if you don't love me.

It was about 11 pm and he said we will talk about this more tomorrow, do you want me to call you tomorrow? I said “do you want to call? You have to stop pleasing me and look what you want. Call me if you want and I will talk to you if I feel I'd like to talk.”

Your entire post has examples of you expecting certain actions from him, after you have given him certain signals. The result is your creating a climate within yourself that disappoints you when he does not give you specifically what you want.

Never mind he is going too slow for you, but your attempts to speed up the natural development of communications drives your actions even further, and prevents you seeing any progress whatsoever. Hard to develop a bond or common grounds for good communications that way.

judytal · Dec 3, 2009, 01:12 AM

This was what I told him last night when he called.
“When you told me you don't love me I got shocked and upset probably because I was thinking how on earth can someone not loving me and that was selfish.
But when I told you I will leave you, I emotionally abused you and that was totally wrong.
I am sorry and apologize.
I would take all my words back if I could because seems I still don't know myself so how I expect you to know me in a year and more over love me.
Although it is still your choice if you want to see me or not, I think I need some time to work on my issue myself.”

He said some nice things but also said he did read a bit about love, lust and infatuation and if that is love, he has some of them with me but he also has same feeling for other people like his son. He also said he is happy that we can still talk open like that ever after that “gray-Saturday”.

We canceled this week Christmas party as he said he is not ready for that and I agreed.

I got a book today and went on-line to read more about passive aggressive disorder. I will do more research and reading. I have never though that the way I talk/act is categorized as a disorder. I won't propose seeing each other this weekend. Need some time to myself.

He called tonight and it was like our old nightly talk.

I thank you all for your help. This could be one of those dramatic events in our relationship but you all helped me to stop it with less damage. I know I still need help but I feel a load has lifted and at least now I know where I should look.

Any new feedback is appreciated.

amicon · Dec 3, 2009, 03:29 AM

I think you're on the road to gain major insights about yourself which is great. You should be doing this for you,but if your relationship benefits from it that's good.

Maximilian4073 · Dec 3, 2009, 09:43 AM

Yes, it sounds like you're taking the right steps in taking some time for yourself. I wouldn't be too hasty to label yourself as having a disorder. Everyone has shades of different behaviours, including passive aggressiveness. Consider it more about getting in touch with some aspects of yourself that perhaps you hadn't been paying attention to previously and see what you find out.

talaniman · Dec 3, 2009, 09:45 AM

The road to full self awareness is a lifetime journey, (so you may as well enjoy it)

judytal · Dec 3, 2009, 11:47 AM

Thanks everybody.
I will keep you posted. Hopefully I come back with less trouble :)

judytal · Dec 4, 2009, 10:44 PM

Ok, I am back (same amount of trouble!) . I need to know what is it when I have to “back off”.

He still calls me every night. Type of the calling that h just wants to make sure I am OK and keep the friendship part alive, which is nice. Last night he asked me what is my plan for today and I said no special plan. I asked him if he'll go to the Christmas party alone and he said no, unless you want us to go and I said no. He said so I will call you when I get home tomorrow which was our talk when he wanted to come here every weekend. I said OK.

He called me tonight (I know he wanted to come even said I have to bring you those DVD but I said nothing and he said nothing) We talked a bit about his workplace that everybody was mad at him why he is not going to the Christmas party. He said one of his friends at work joked that you can come as my date if you want (she has a boyfriend but he is out of town and she had to go to the party alone, nothing between them) . I asked him what does she know about us? Why she thought you can be her date? He said he just told her that we wanted to go together before and now we have some “marital” discussion and we thought it is better not to go there.

I said OK, just curious what you told her.
I told him, When you don't talk to me, I understand that you might not even know what you feel but I also feel I am in dark and it makes me anxious. I wish you could share your feelings and thoughts with me so I can grew up with them gradually and they would be less surprise for me.

He said sometimes I even don't know what I want but I don't want to tell you because what if the feeling goes away, what if it is not a permanent feeling, then I'll hurt you.
I told him I appreciate it but if we talk at least I know where we are and that is better for me even if things don't go as we wish.

He told me what I want might not be the thing you want. Like I want to see you “once in a while” or go to movie with you or go on a trip but I think emotionally we are not in-sync. Last thing I want to do it hurting you.

He said he'll give me a call tomorrow to talk more. I said we can also meet and talk.

Now, my question is, what I want? I know it is kind of silly but what I really want? I don't know. Do I want his friendship? Yes, I do but how I know deep down this is what I want?

When I said I need to back off, where is the line for it? Meaning I should not talk to him? Should not see him? If he wants to come here I should say no? Should I share my emotions? Should I propose not to see /call each other for a week?
Thanks,

p.s. Hopefully I didn't act passive-aggressively again/a lot. I read a bit about it. I think I don't have the disorder but I do have some signs especially the passive ones and I think lots of my doubts are coming from that. I also read a bit about being more assertive and I am trying to be more assertive to myself. Gosh, I can hid my emotions even from myself.

emopunk7 · Dec 5, 2009, 03:14 AM

Don't be so hard on yourself. When certain things don't go well, we tend to take full blame and this also affects our self esteem. Maybe, just maybe, the two of you really don't mix well together. Maybe with another guy you won't be passive aggressive. Certain people act Certain ways with Certain people. So, just mark this as one more out of the list and give yourself a fresh start. Just let this guy go. Good luck!

talaniman · Dec 5, 2009, 08:47 AM

I agree with Emo to a point, as he is right about the way certain people click, and some do not click as well.

I think you draw the line at your availability to him, and balance your life with other people, places, and things, that you enjoy.

This will cut down on the confusion, and give you a healthy perspective to this situation.

You may be trying too hard to make a friendship something more, and be pushing too hard for something that's not ready, or able, to develop at this time.

No biggie really, but limiting contact, limits the attachment, and give you more options, and opportunities, to choose from, and that's a healthy place to be.

Honestly, if something was going to happen between you, it would have by now. So it is time to change the focus.

judytal · Dec 5, 2009, 08:15 PM

First step to change the focus, this is what I did:

I had my hair cut today.
I went to my watercolor painting class after 7-8 months! Everybody was surprised seeing me there. When my teacher asked me what I would like to do today, I burst into tears and said, nothing. I just wanted to be here. She gave me a hug and said nothing.

I made my list of things to do:

1) Find a second job for the weekends, I just have LOTS of time in my hand :(
2) Start learning French online
3) Pay the property tax
4) Shorten 3 pairs of pants that I bought 6 months ago!
5) Clean and take my bicycle to the parkade
6) Organize the CDs and find a place to put them, maybe in the china cabinet!
7) Take the rest of the laminates to the locker (we laminated my place in summer)
8) Nail the baseboards (He wanted to do it in summer and I kept saying let it be for a rainy day, I guess this is rainy enough)
9) Install the walking closet T-mold (Glued the metal thing down tonight)
10) Bring the Christmas decoration up and set them
11) Dump the old microwave
12) Frame my paintings

Don't forget to:
1) Make just meals that take long to be prepared
2) Do Pilates every night

P.S. Kept thinking about him as well as all the NC rules. I can't believe this is us. I haven't talk to him yet but I'd like to see him and talk. Not on the phone.
P.S. See, I really changed the focus, he is in P.S.

makapuu · Dec 6, 2009, 02:13 AM

It sounds like the pieces of your life are on the table and you are fitting them into the right places.

Although your relationship with this man isn't what you wanted, he seems like he truly cares about you and wants you to be OK.

talaniman · Dec 6, 2009, 08:21 AM

Wow, now that's making some good use of the suggestions, the advice has given you.

I'm impressed, and want to say you have a great plan. I really think you will be in a better place soon, and have fun getting there.

amicon · Dec 6, 2009, 08:43 AM

Great list,great plans.
Good luck!

judytal · Dec 6, 2009, 10:02 PM

It was sunny today!

P.S. (putting him still in the P.S. Part :) ) I met with him today. I asked him to go bring his bike to bike the seawall. We biked for more than 3 hours, had lunch in an ocean view restaurant and came back home without saying anything about us.

Then we talked a bit.
He said, I have doubt,
1) Why when I am with you I still look at other girls? Shouldn't you be enough for me?
2) I know I have started the nightly phone calls but now it is not a chore but I feel I have to call you no matter what.
3) I didn't have opportunity to miss you like crazy
4) You are a strong, powerful woman like my mom, maybe you remind me of her.

I told him about our different approaches in dealing with things, like I get a bit agitated when I have to do things like “emotional” stuff and am restless but he is always a bit slow and procrastinator. We have to know ourselves.

I told him checking out other girl although it is never pleasant for us but I think it is normal for guys as long as you don't touch.
For our phone call, this was your idea, you have the same with you son. And we will stop it. So don't call me unless you need to talk to me. I will give you a call sometimes in a week (which probably will be once this week, I don't know. I just didn't want him to call me so I don't wait for his call and he can wait for mine a bit).

I also suggested to go and talk to a specialist. Told him go and talk about your emotion, your vision about love and see if you have to be missing someone like crazy to be in love considering your lifestyle and age and for example not being in any relationship for 12 years (because he was raising his son). Learn about yourself and see if these believes are really correct for you. He agreed (am not sure if he does this, but if he doesn't means he really doesn't care about this relationship).

I also told him how do we want to see each other. He said like today was a prefect day (that was actually my plan to show him we can enjoy our company) He said I want to do that. I said we shouldn't see each other every weekend and because I want to plan for my weekend, we make a plan for the next week, so no seeing at least for the two weeks (I am getting a bit nervous now). I also canceled my Christmas party for the next Sunday with him (but I am going).

He said so let's say couple of months from now, if we see this is not working then we go about our lives. But if anything happened in between like you met someone or I met someone we have to tell each other. I said no, if any of us met someone else, we say we are still in a relationship and you have to wait till end of the 6 months. He agreed that this is a better plan.

It was another topic that came up tonight and that was the “fluctuations” he had with other women in the past 12 yeas (all from the work) and they were mostly wrong women for him, way younger and they usually ignored him in the beginning and when they started showing their interest to him, he said he was wise enough to know those were not the right one for him. But I told him maybe this is another thing, maybe you are more attracted to “no” as an answer, that make the challenge for you, you feel you win something, it is not an easy catch. This went also to the list of the things he suppose to talk to a specialist about.

Anyway, he left now. I watched him leaving like he would never come back (didn't let him see that) but I hope he misses me like crazy :(

On the plan:

2) Start learning French online (found a website and started it, and told him too)
5) Clean and take my bicycle to the parkade (I cleaned it but it is still upstairs)
9) Install the walking closet T-mold (Done!)

Added to the list, cleaning my dishwasher, it needs a bit of cleaning. And I did a big dusting today, that was not in the plan :)

As for the last bit, I really appreciate your help, comments, suggestions and more over presence.
I feel I have friends that I even can tell them about my dusting and they neither give up on me nor judge him for all of our shortcomings.

And for the record, I am crying like a crazy...
A bientôt !

judytal · Dec 7, 2009, 10:17 PM

3) Pay the property tax (Done)
5) Clean and take my bicycle to the parkade (Done)
10) Bring the Christmas decoration up and set them (Done)

Hard dinner and cleaning the microwave is done too.

P.S. No calls or text, I am on NC till Thursday.

sully123 · Dec 8, 2009, 04:07 AM

Judytal I admire you for being so strong, and working on yourself and keeping busy. But I think you shouldn't put so much pressure on your relationship with this man, and just go along enjoying it. I understand your both in your 40's and he may have some issues he is dealing with. But, people who are close, some are just friends for a long time and then getting married down the road. Maybe your just digging too deep, lighten up and enjoy each other. Sounds too me he cares a lot about you, and if you put too much pressure the outcome won't be good. Do what your doing, let him make all the moves, they love challenges.

Devorameira · Dec 8, 2009, 07:33 AM

Judytal - I really look up to you. You are so strong and independent! I wish I had even half of your strength. Relax and be yourself and stop worrying about what your future will be. With all that stength, it's bound to be something wonderful.

---------------------------------------------

Giving someone all your love is not an assurance that they'll love you back. - Unknown

Sometimes, no matter how long or hard you've loved someone, they'll never - love you back. And sometimes, you have to be ok with that.
Unknown

judytal · Dec 8, 2009, 11:18 PM

The second night,
4) Shorten 3 pairs of pants that I bought 6 months ago! (Done, actually did 2 of them. It turns out I am a bit slimmer and the third one is big for me :) )
I did plan for Christmas night with a friend but I need to do more planing.

Sully123 and Devorameira, thanks for you support. I need to be though otherwise I will call him “right now”. Missed him like a crazy. Never happened not talking to him for 2 days.

Hint 1) Friends are wonderful support.
Hint 2) Do NOT look at the “old sweet pictures”

I am using this site now to make sure I keep my promises. “No call till Thursday. “

vanheart · Dec 8, 2009, 11:55 PM

Sounds like he's slowly exiting without trying to hurt you.

Don't try or push now.

And yes, 7 months isn't a long time.

Don't confuse love with fun. Talk is talk, but actions speak loud.

vanheart · Dec 9, 2009, 12:16 AM

Whoops, Im late. Sorry. But true.

Glad that you know now & are doing the right things. Congrats. Keep it up.

Stay NC forever. Learn from this. Another life lesson.

Get rid of the pictures & everything else that has do do w/him.

It hurts yes. But removal is the only way. Kind of like taking out the garbage, emotionally, you know?

Learning & growing is everything. Makes us better people.

Rock on, judy.