[Tj3]

Why would Christ 'fight' tradition?

Because the tradition of man does not compare to the word of God.

Do you recall God's revelation of Truth to Jacob, Abraham, and Mosses; was the truth revealed by God in Jacob's day any less true in antiquity, any less true than God's truth today? How else would the chosen people convey that truth from generation to generation but by tradition?

And the oral tradition was carefully passed down from generation to generation (not corrupted by additions of men) until such time as it was written down. Not - it was written down. Just as we are told that the revelation in the NT was written down.

[JoeT777]

Because the tradition of man does not compare to the word of God.



And the oral tradition was carefully passed down from generation to generation (not corrupted by additions of men) until such time as it was written down. Not - it was written down. Just as we are told that the revelation in the NT was written down.

And when did Christ turn on Mosses and say, "And Mosses has no book".

[Tj3]

And when did Christ turn on Mosses and say, "And Mosses has no book".

Huh?? English translation please? Do you have a problem with Jesus? Please clarify.

[arcura]

Joe,
You are right.
Well said.
Fred

[flayvur]

Finally some dialouge I can relate to. From what I understand we can't please GOD with tradition. We can get caught up in the way things have been done and not step out side the box. GOD is so large and amazing we can't begin to understand how much so. I think tradition keeps you in the box and GOD wants us to step out side the box and not focus so much on the rules but building a relationship with him to become more like him. Bottom line the things that christ asked us to keep in remembrance were thing to help the generations to come remember the great things god has done in the past so their faith would be build up. Baptism is just symbolic to the cleansing and rebirth of your new life in christ. Pass over is remembering god passing over the Israelites homes in egypt. And communion is symbolic to christs body, and blood and him giving it for us. Jesus broke a lot of traditions.

[arcura]

flayvur,
So you believe, but I don't.
I believe that Jesus made baptism a sacrament.
A sacrament is something that has been set for a special purpose.
Long ago it cleaned away sins for the Jews and a Christian Baptism does indeed remove sins if done according to how Jesus instructed.
Peace and kidness,
Fred

[Tj3]

flayvur,
So you believe, but I don't.
I believe that Jesus made baptism a sacrament.
A sacrament is something that has been set for a special purpose.
Long ago it cleaned away sins for the Jews and a Christian Baptism does indeed remove sins if done according to how Jesus instructed.
Peace and kidness,
Fred

Fred,

Even for the Jews it was said to be symbolic.

Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV

The term "various washings" refers to the Jewish mikveh and the word here in Greek is baptismos, elsewhere translated as baptism.

Further, scripture is clear that it is believing in Jesus that saves, and it is the blood on the cross that washed our sins, not water.

Rev 1:4-6
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
NKJV

Paul said in Romans that the water of baptism was symbolic.

Rom 6:4-7
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

Notice the word "likeness"? It means a comparison, or a symbolism.

[flayvur]

I'm totally not disagreeing with any thing that's being said. I f there's any questions within you I would direct you fred or arcura to ask the holy spirit to reveal it to you. I myself am not questioning you. I'm simply stating what has been revealed to me.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Believe as you wish.
I will believe as I do.
OK?
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Believe as you wish.
I will believe as I do.
OK?
Fred

Fred,

You are always welcome to believe as you wish, and no doubt you will, but that will not stop me from posting what scripture has to say on this or any other topic.

Tom

[JoeT777]

From what I understand we can't please GOD with tradition.

Mosses did, didn't he? -- you might recall 'The Law of Mosses'

We can get caught up in the way things have been done and not step outside the box. GOD is so large and amazing we can't begin to understand how much so. I think tradition keeps you in the box and GOD wants us to step outside the box and not focus so much on the rules but building a relationship with him to become more like him.

But, are you suggesting that you can do one up on God with the 'thinking out of the box'?

Bottom line the things that Christ asked us to keep in remembrance were thing to help the generations to come remember the great things god has done in the past so their faith would be build up.

As we keep the daily tradition of communion, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life” (John 6:55)

Baptism is just symbolic to the cleansing and rebirth of your new life in Christ.

Baptism is an absolute necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God. It is the real remission of actual and original sin and removes temporal punishment accrued for sin. Baptism infuses a real and permanent supernatural gift of grace and virtue. It confers special graces of an inheritance of God's promises for mercy. Did Christ not say, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”? (John 3)

Passover is remembering god passing over the Israelites homes in Egypt and communion is symbolic to Christ's body, and blood and him giving it for us. Jesus broke a lot of traditions.

Christ himself celebrated Passover in the tradition of the Jewish faith. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matt 5: 17).

JoeT

[adam7gur]

I think the answear to the OP's question is.. ''you have turned the house of my Father into a house of thieves''.
Selling birds and animals outside the Temple was a manmade tradition that man invented to gain profit.
Man used the Word of God(sacrifises), for his own benefit(gain money). That's tradition!
Also man used the Word of God(stoning whores and adulteres) for their benefit(self justification).That's tradition!
So many things that man still does , manipulating God's Word for his own benefit... that's Tradition!
Heb 9:9-10 is not about baptism but about sacrifise.The sacrifise of animals was symbolic but of course those people could not understand that because they simply were ''newborns'' since Jesus Christ was not revealed yet.
Baptism is something that He Himself instructed His desciples to do and of course there are so many symbolisms in it but that does not mean that we can say that it is just symbolic and not be baptized.Also participating in the Lord's Body by bread and wine is symbolic to eat His flesh and drink His blood.This was also insrtucted by Him!
Everything we do is symbolic, but that does not mean that we could rest in a symbolism.That would be tradition!

[JoeT777]

And the oral tradition was carefully passed down from generation to generation (not corrupted by additions of men) until such time as it was written down. Not - it was written down. Just as we are told that the revelation in the NT was written down.

The Tradition of the Church is that Tradition given it b Christ and the Holy Sperit. No man can corrupt it.

Tradition was passed down from generation to generation so that man could be made adopted sons of God. New Testament Scripture was later developed as a special form of Roman Catholic Tradition.



JoeT

[Tj3]

Mosses did, didn’t he?

Did he? No references, I see.

As we keep the daily tradition of communion, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life” (John 6:55)

As always, reading in context is important. To stop there without reading the full context would not be using sound Biblical exegesis, so lets continue on.

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

Now Jesus now says that the flesh profits nothing. This appears contrary to verses 53-4 that state that we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and if we do, we receive eternal life, but then Jesus clarifies by stating that Jesus says that the words are the spirit and the life. This is why it is important to continue on and read the full context because Jesus has just struck to the very heart of the doctrine of transubstantiation by saying that the flesh does not profit us at all. Rather He says, that the life comes from the spirit, not the flesh and it is the words that bring the spirit.

Words = spirit = life, Flesh does not profit anything.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 4:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

It is God's word that brings life and the spirit, not eating the flesh. Therefore, even if the bread were changed to flesh, there would be no benefit from eating it. Now, remember earlier in this document, it was noted that human flesh and blood do perish and yet the bread that Jesus offered did not perish? Here is the explanation. Jesus was not speaking of bread, or of blood or of flesh but was speaking of the words of God which bring life. God word and the life which comes from God's word (the Gospel) are eternal. Bread, flesh and blood are perishable, but God's word and salvation which comes from receiving the gospel are eternal.

64a But there are some of you who do not believe.

Some do not believe that the flesh profits nothing rather and thus do not believe that it is His words that give the spirit and life. If they do not believe that the flesh profits nothing, then they must believe that it is the flesh rather than His words that He is speaking about.

64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

Baptism is an absolute necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Then you are telling us that the thief on the cross and every saint in the OT went to hell?

Did Christ not say, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”? (John 3)

Let's see that in context:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic. Jesus here is using the Jewish figure of speech known as parallelism, equating the two items mentioned first with the same two mentioned the second time, respectively. Thus:

Water = flesh
Spirit = Spirit.

[Tj3]

The Tradition of the Church is that Tradition given it b Christ and the Holy Sperit. No man can corrupt it.

The tradition given to the church in the 1st century was all written down so that man could not corrupt it.

New Testament Scripture was later developed as a special form of Roman Catholic Tradition.

Let's not start that again. As you know that denomination started centuries later than the NT was written down. For it to have been a denominational tradition, it would have to have been written down after the 4th century, and it would not be the word of God but a tradition of men.

[arcura]

Tj3,
SO you still insist on a false idea that The Church did not become The Church until centuries later.
History and Scripture prove that to be false.
When are you going to start believing in reality?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Selling birds and animals outside the Temple was a manmade tradition that man invented to gain profit. Man used the Word of God (sacrifices), for his own benefit (gain money). That's tradition! Also man used the Word of God (stoning whores and adulterers) for their benefit (self justification).That's tradition! So many things that man still does, manipulating God's Word for his own benefit...that's Tradition!

Yeah it's called sin. Just because there is unpleasant gritty sand on the beach doesn't mean you deny the existence of a place where the land meets the ocean.

Heb 9:9-10 is not about baptism but about sacrifice. The sacrifice of animals was symbolic but of course those people could not understand that because they simply were ''newborns'' since Jesus Christ was not revealed yet.

Its true sacrificed gifts could never atone for sin. Nor by the eating of certain foods or drinking certain drinks can satisfy the conscience. And carnal ordinances requiring various washings can never blot away sin. However, touching of the dead requires special purification with water, so too the touching of faith without works (dead faith) outlined verse 13 & 14 is to become unclean. (Cf. James 2:17). Thus, how can one serve a living God with a dead fait? How then do you become holy without the Sacramental Traditions taught by the Church? What does it profit you to memorize every word of in the bible any you still can't wash the naked sin from your brother. It's the mediator's New Testament who traded his life for redemption, a promise of eternal inheritance as adopted sons of God. And until you eat of the body of Christ and drink of the blood of Christ will you have life (John 6:54). Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. And in this spilt blood we find the fulfillment of the Old Testament and the ratification of the New Testament. Christ has affirmed our redemption in the waters of baptism and the blood of redemption.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

the tradition given to the church in the 1st century was all written down so that man could not corrupt it.

And in which of the 72 books of the bible does it say that it was written down "so that man couuld not corrupt it". And which of the 72 books of the bible did Christ say, "and so it was said, so let it be written"? I don't remember that part.



Let's not start that again. As you know that denomination started centuries later than the NT was written down. For it to have been a denominational tradition, it would have to have been written down after the 4th century, and it would not be the word of God but a tradition of men.[/QUOTE]


I know that the Catholic Church was born when Christ said, "Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church," (Matt 15:17-18)

In english, doesn't Christ say I WILL and UPON THIS ROCK and BUILD MY CHURCH?

JoeT

[JoeT777]

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV
.

Boy, John 6 really irks you. Why don't you remove it from the bible along with James?

What is it about, "eat this, this is my body" and "drink this, this is my blood" that you don't under stand. (Cf. Matt 26:26-27)

JoeT

[adam7gur]

[QUOTE=JoeT777;1813531]Yeah it’s called sin. Just because there is unpleasant gritty sand on the beach doesn’t mean you deny the existence of a place where the land meets the ocean.QUOTE]

I did not say that tradition is out of the question.All I said is that tradition that is not in agreement with the Word should not be taken as God's will! Jesus said that he who is not against us is with us.
It takes two witnesses to testify the word so that the word becomes certain.Tradition should be backed up somehow by the Word, I think it is clear that every word that is against the Word somehow, is not God's!
Again I am not saying that we should forget everything else and just focus and study the Bible, but I am saying examine every word, every tradition if it is God's or not!