[homesell]

My contention is that those who are saved have the holy spirit residing in them. Those not saved do not. Judas did not have the Holy spirit within him. The holy spirit was not given during the time Jesus was incarnate. This is also why the apostles "all forsook him" at the cross and Peter even denied him. Also why in Chapter 21 of John it shows them moping around fishing until Jesus came (after His death) and had them receive the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. In John 16:5-7 Jesus says, "It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor(Holy Spirit) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

[arcura]

Fr_Chuck,
Excellent question.
I hope to see some answers to that.
Fred

[homesell]

Fr_chuck
You've set up a "straw man" argument for losing salvation once a person actually and truly is saved by assuming Judas"accepted" Jesus. Judas never accepted Jesus. He was the betrayer. In John 17:12, Jesus (referring to the twelve apostles) says, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
All of us, like Judas, are doomed to destruction UNLESS God, in His great mercy and lovingkindness chose us before the foundation of the world to be his own and live in us as we are living in Him, a special, peculiar, people.

[classyT]

Jeff,

Once again... whoo hoo and amen!

[arcura]

homesell
So Judas was chosen before the foundation of this world to be doomed.
My my, my; the God you believe in creates and chooses people to be doomed before they have a chance to be saved.
Sorry, but I can not believe that.
Jesus tells us that God IS love, thus NOT a creator of selected people who are predestined to be doomed.
I believe that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[albear]

Fr_chuck
You've set up a "straw man" argument for losing salvation once a person actually and truely is saved by assuming Judas"accepted" Jesus. Judas never accepted Jesus. He was the betrayer. In John 17:12, Jesus (referring to the twelve apostles) says, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
All of us, like Judas, are doomed to destruction UNLESS God, in His great mercy and lovingkindness chose us before the foundation of the world to be his own and live in us as we are living in Him, a special, peculiar, people.

Please tell me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here?

But as you said people are already pre destined for destruction, that means that you can't do anything here on earth to change that, so what if you are pre destined for destruction?
Wouldn't that mean being a follower of christianity is pointless?

[arcura]

albear,
Excellent question.
I will watch for and answer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[homesell]

Albear,
I didn't say it, I directly quoted the Bible with chapter and verse the words of Jesus. He would know. We are all created for Gods purposes to do what he wills. Do you think when God created lucifer that he didn't know what would happen?
As to destruction or life everlasting from the foundation of the world, we don't know who is saved and who isn't and we don't know who will be saved and who won't. "The Spirit goes where it wills." I do contend that when you are truly saved you know it and know that your future home is heaven and that we who are saved are currently seated in the heavenlies. John 10:14-15, "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep.

[JoeCanada76]

please tell me if ive got the wrong end of the stick here?

but as you said people are already pre destined for destruction, that means that you can't do anything here on earth to change that, so what if you are pre destined for destruction?
wouldnt that mean being a follower of christianity is pointless?

Who is pre destined for destruction? Whoever said that, has it all wrong. Yes, everything here on earth we do effects everything and everybody here now and later.

Following Christianity is not pointless.

[albear]

In John 17:12, Jesus (referring to the twelve apostles) says, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
All of us, like Judas, are doomed to destruction UNLESS God, in His great mercy and lovingkindness chose us before the foundation of the world to be his own and live in us as we are living in Him, a special, peculiar, people.

OK this is the bit you quoted and your translation of it, right
And when it says 'EXCEPT THE ONE' couldn't that mean there was ever only one doomed to destruction, not 'all of us' as you say?

Albear,
I didn't say it, I directly quoted the Bible with chapter and verse the words of Jesus. He would know. We are all created for Gods purposes to do what he wills. Do you think when God created lucifer that he didn't know what would happen?
As to destruction or life everlasting from the foundation of the world, we don't know who is saved and who isn't and we don't know who will be saved and who won't. "The Spirit goes where it wills." I do contend that when you are truely saved you know it and know that your future home is heaven and that we who are saved are currently seated in the heavenlies. John 10:14-15, "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Wait hold on, I thought god gave everyone free will right?
So in which case we are not all created for gods purposes to do as he wills.
I can't say what I would believe if I believed in god or a follower of christianity, because that is a path I didn't travel down so I could have had totally different beliefs than those that I have now,
But "Do you think when God created lucifer that he didn't know what would happen?" I don't think he did know otherwise why even create him?

And you didn't really answer my question about why bother being a christian if were either saved or doomed before we started our life on earth.(could be said of all religions but since were on the chrisitianity board then christianity)?
Unless you did and I just missed it I which case sorry but could you explain it in more clear terms, thanks :)

[homesell]

Whether we have free will or not isn't stated explicitly in the scripture so I won't go into that here. You think that God didn't know what would happen when he created Lucifer? How could God who knows all, not know? Maybe you are putting God into a box and don't like it or don't agree with it when God doesn't do or act the way YOU think he should.
You said, "why bother being a Christian if you are either saved or doomed?" The answer is that the Christian life 1. Is the most wonderful life you can have 2. No one knows if they are saved or doomed until they become a Christian. 3. Christianity is different from all other religions in several ways. a. It isn't a religion it is a relationship. b. It is God reaching down and saving man in His mercy, whereas all other religion is doing "good works" to try to "get in good" with God c. We are the only group that is specifically told to love our enemies, pray for those that spitefully use us, and to help those who are against us if they need help.

[arcura]

I believe that what we do with our free will is what determines where we will go when we disencorpserate (our soul leaves our body).
God knows what our choices will be but we do not till we make them.
That is the kernel of the nut (the meat of life).
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[albear]

Whether we have free will or not isn't stated explicitly in the scripture so I won't go into that here. You think that God didn't know what would happen when he created Lucifer? How could God who knows all, not know? Maybe you are putting God into a box and don't like it or don't agree with it when God doesn't do or act the way YOU think he should.
You said, "why bother being a Christian if you are either saved or doomed?" The answer is that the Christian life 1. Is the most wonderful life you can have 2. No one knows if they are saved or doomed until they become a Christian. 3. Christianity is different from all other religions in several ways. a. It isn't a religion it is a relationship. b. It is God reaching down and saving man in His mercy, whereas all other religion is doing "good works" to try to "get in good" with God c. We are the only group that is specifically told to love our enemies, pray for those that spitefully use us, and to help those who are against us if they need help.

hold on you said god imposes his will on us that means we have no free will, so by what you said gods will is for people to be gay(which I believe is a sin in christianity right?) people to kill other people and people to molest children some how I don't think that's what a god would will do you?
no I don't think god did know when he created lucifer, why create something you know is going to do evil, especially if you supposed to be god it doesn't make sense for a god who is supposed to be kind to all living creatures to create the devil does it.
oh I'm not putting god into a box or liking or not liking 'it' (what ever it is?)mainly because I don't really follow christianity I'm just trying to understand what your saying, as for thinking how I think he should your doing the same thing I'm just going off what other people have told me :)
your point 1. hmmm that's debatable and actually quite biased from your point of view you can't have experienced all other types of life so to be honest that just your opinion and not reall a fact.
2. you said they're already doomed or saved anyway and know weather or not they are won't change the out come.
3. have you followed all the other religions and chosen christianity ? Or is it as I suspect just your opinion.
and as for 'love our enemies' I sense a lot of distain for other religions in you, so you seem to be a bit of a hypocrite.
I hope you don't get defensive, I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just trying to understand what your saying as it is quite confusing

[arcura]

albear
You've asked some interesting questions.
Though I have some answers, first I will look forward to the other answers.
Fred

[arcura]

albear
You've asked some interesting questions.
Though I have some answers, first I will look forward to the other answers.
Fred

[homesell]

Albear,
You sure aren't the first person to not understand what I'm saying. I'll try to clear things up.
I said I had no comment on whether we have free will or not. People choose to sin. God loves sinners(us) but hates the sin that we do.
Saying that it didn't make sense for God to create Lucifer knowing what would happen is what I talked about by God not acting the way you feel he should.
1. I have experienced life without Christ so I know what that is like and I can readily see the difference in the Christians I have known that have been rescued from a life of violence, drug addictions, alcoholism, greed, etc. that were all self destructive, so I have seen other lives without Christ. (Especially when I worked as a bouncer)
2. The outcome isn't changed but since we don't know the outcome there is the possibility that anyone may come to know Christ. As you might someday. When I was an unbeliever I thought there was no way in this world I would ever become a Christian but God, in his grace and mercy, saved me and changed me.
3. I have investigated other religions yes and even non-believers agree that all other religions require a list of things to do to "get closer" to God or get to heaven or paradise. Even atheism requires that you don't believe in God.
I don't see other religions as my enemy but yes, I am a hypocrite when it comes to letting God's love flow out from me at all times. In that, I fail.
Actually we are all hypocrites in the sense that we don't live up to our own made up code of conduct at all times.
I certainly took no offense at your response and appreciate you taking the time to point out where I didn't make myself clear.

[arcura]

homesell,
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

[jenniepepsi]

I believe suicide to be a way satan uses to gain control in our hearts. He fills us with despair and anger and sadness and hopelessness.

In god, all things are possible. Look how he tested Job. Job basically went through hell for his god. And it would have been very easy for him to lose faith in his lord and take the 'easy way out' by killing himself. But he didn't. He stuck it out. And is now dining in heaven with his god.


Simply put, suicide is an unforgivable sin. It cannot be forgiven because you cannot ask forgivenes once you have done it. And you can't simply say 'forgive me for what I'm about to do'

God says our bodies are our temples. And we are to treat them as such. Do not destroy maim or harm your body in any way. And suicide does just that.

[arcura]

jenniepepsi,
Right!
Thou shalt not murder.
To commit suicide is to murder ones self.
Fred

[Athos]

Didn't Jesus choose to die when he could have had the angels save him? Was that suicide?