[homesell]

Yes albear that was my point exactly. No matter how much the finches changed, they were still finches and they will always be in the finch family. Yes you cannot breed a cat and a dog which is why evolution is wrong when it says that one kind(say elephant for example) can become another Kind(say camel for example)
Saying that since we have eyes it is proof of evolution is equal to if I say since we are here we must have been created. It is not a valid argument.
And for others reading this, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am NOT saying a person must believe in a 6 day creation to still be a Christian. Many of my closests friends that I am sure are "in Christ" believe God used evolution. I can disagree and we are still family.

[NeedKarma]

... which is why evolution is wrong when it says that one kind(say elephant for example) can become another Kind(say camel for example)

Where does it say that?

[homesell]

When it alleges that we all(every living thing on earth) came from a simple (though there is no such thing as a simple)one celled organism which came from a pre-biotic soup which came from ? A rock? The infinitesimal speck super compressed that scientists say is how the big bang started. Basically, it says that organisms become more complex as they evolve, which is the opposite of what we find in science. Even a one celled organism is extremely complex. Darwin really had no idea since cellular biology was in its infancy back then. Every living thing has an information packet(the DNA code) which tells the cell what to do and what it's function is. Where did the DNA code come from? An honest scientist will admit they don't know. On top of that, the DNA is in code so there is also a way for the organism to interpret the code. No one knows how the DNA is able to interpret its own code. Accident, radiation and other things cause a mutation. A mutation is ALWAYS a LOSS of genetic information, never a gain, (in other words a dog will never sprout wings)In fact there has never been a proven gain of DNA information at any time. This is why many purebred dogs are weak, sickly have hip problems, etc. while the "heinz 57" mutt dog is usually in excellent health. This is also why we as humans dare not inbreed with close relatives, the chances of defects increases dramatically.

[albear]

Yes albear that was my point exactly. No matter how much the finches changed, they were still finches and they will always be in the finch family. Yes you cannot breed a cat and a dog which is why evolution is wrong when it says that one kind(say elephant for example) can become another Kind(say camel for example)
Saying that since we have eyes it is proof of evolution is equal to if I say since we are here we must have been created. It is not a valid argument.
And for others reading this, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am NOT saying a person must believe in a 6 day creation to still be a Christian. Many of my closests friends that I am sure are "in Christ" believe God used evolution. I can disagree and we are still family.

Its not saying one species will become another, not in the way your thinking, its saying a species will contine ue to improve/adap positivly so it is better at surviving or it will die out.
No idea where your getting the idea that its saying a cat can become a dog, the thing about the finches is that they had a common ancestor but after being separated by water,(creating the galapagos islands) they adapted to become better at surviving, bigger beak, lighter bones so yes they are all still finches, just different types of finches.

Well no you saying that and comparing it to eyes being proof of evolution, is not really the same, as for one we are actually created, just not in the way your meaning(you meant be god right? I meant by reproduction)

As for eyes being proof of evolution, I don't have the knowledge to back that up... yet, but it doesn't mean that it isn't true. Id have stuck with the finches as proof of evolution, its much easier to understand for me :)

[homesell]

Yes finches have changed and they came from a common ancestor- the finch family. If by common ancestor you mean going back to where we all have a one celled organism as our ancestor then your talking molecules to man evolution. An evolution where one kind of creature becomes a totally different kind of creature(over time) a kind of goo to you by way of the zoo.
What I said was, you can't point at the eye and say,"it must have developed by evolution because it's here" I can't point to the eye and say it was created by God because it is here. Those aren't valid arguments.
Every animal that has ever been discovered was complete. Not, here's one that almost had it's ears to hear or here's one that was THIS close to having eye development good enuff to see, or wow! If this thing had just developed hollow bones and feathers, those useless wings would have helped him instead of getting him killed.

[albear]

Yes finches have changed and they came from a common ancestor- the finch family. If by common ancestor you mean going back to where we all have a one celled organism as our ancestor then your talking molecules to man evolution. An evolution where one kind of creature becomes a totally different kind of creature(over time) a kind of goo to you by way of the zoo.
What I said was, you can't point at the eye and say,"it must have developed by evolution because it's here" I can't point to the eye and say it was created by God because it is here. Those aren't valid arguments.
Every animal that has ever been discovered was complete. Not, here's one that almost had it's ears to hear or here's one that was THIS close to having eye development good enuff to see, or wow! if this thing had just developed hollow bones and feathers, those useless wings would have helped him instead of getting him killed.

When I said the finches had a common ancester I meant a finch.
But yes I believe that we did evolve from a single celled organism.

Yea I agree with you about saying the eye is proof because its here, but it doesn't mean that evolution or creationism is wrong

'Every animal that has ever been discovered was complete. Not, here's one that almost had it's ears to hear or here's one that was THIS close to having eye development good enuff to see, or wow! If this thing had just developed hollow bones and feathers, those useless wings would have helped him instead of getting him killed.' - I've no idea what you just said there :confused:




The theory of evolution and the creation story in the bible, they aren't mutually exclusive, the bible says that god created the earth in 7 days, it doesn't say how long a day is, it could be several million years, also it doesn't note quite how he created the creatures.


Important 1
What creationism and all other theories of evolution are away of trying to work out how everything came to be.

[arcura]

homesell
Very well made points.
Thank you. That's why I believe in Divine Design.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JimGunther]

Homesell:

You said "There are scientists that believe in a literal 6 day creation. They are interviewed in the book, "50 scientists that Believe."

I could give you the names and address of 50 people who think that sex with minors is OK-from the state sex offender registry. What 50 people believe isn't really of value in a discussion of this type, the best evidence for the conclusion, combined with common sense, should decide the issue.

You said "Any scientist that tries to go against what is commonly believed is ostracised and can lose their position and grant money."

Yes, I know this happens, I recall a particular case in which evidence was found suggesting that mankind got to the North American continent much earlier than is commonly believed. Obviously that is an injustice and I'm not sure what you are trying to say by bringing up the matter.

Your said "evolution is based on non-observable, non-repeatable events which also makes evolution non-scientific."

You are absolutely wrong. Carbon dating, for example, can be used as a technique to verify the dates of organic objects by anyone who learns the technique. The scientific method by definition requires that the conclusions reached are based on observable, repeatable events. If not, the conclusion is not acceptable by science.

You mention the things that science has not done yet, such as discovering the "missing link". Isn't it obvious to you that science is in its infancy, and that there are many, many, many things we do not know about the world and the universe around us? It doesn't really constitute a valid argument against science to say that we don't know some particular facts, after all we are just beginning our quest. As was mentioned, science is a growing body of knowledge and we learn more every day.

Of course there is evidence against evolution and there are people who don't believe in it, but from where we stand right now in our journey to discover everything about ourselves and our universe, its the generally accepted explanation for the existence of the living things we see today. Here are two quotes from the Grollier Encyclopedia of Knowledge on the subject:

"Evolution is the process by which all living things have developed from primitive organisms through changes occurring over billions of years, a progression that includes the most advanced animals and plants. Exactly how evolution occurs is still a matter of debate, but that is occurs is a scientific fact."

"New species may evolve either by the change of one species to another or by the splitting of one species into two or more new species. Splitting, the predominate mode of species formation, results from geographical isolation of populations of species."

So that's what I believe about the issue, based upon science. But let me tell you what I believe based upon faith. My study of astronomy and other branches of science leads me to believe that the existence of the universe is not explainable without the existence of God. And I believe that God uses evolution, among many other tools, to run the universe as He sees fit.

[arcura]

JimGunther,
I agree with you.
I also believe in science and that God created the universe to become as we see it today.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JimGunther]

Thank you, Fred and backatcha!

[homesell]

JimGunther,
My point about 50 scientists that believe is that these aren't just people off the street like your 50 that believe in sex with minors(a curious analogy) but actual Phd's in the subject that make their living as scientists, some are professors at college. I taught high school biology and don't consider myself a scientist but know more than the average guy about the subject and these 50 know way more than I do. The point being to erase from people's mind the idea that people that don't believe in evolution are either ignorant or ignore the facts of science.
The reason I broughtup about being ostracized about NOT believing in evolution, is that many real scientist do not believe evolution took place, but stay silent to keep their jobs.
You said I was absolutely wrong saying evolution is based on non-observable, non-repeatable events which make evolution non-scientific” If you remember from grade school, science is 1. Observable, 2. repeatable, 3.testable. Carbon dating cannot and does not give specific dates of age, many assumptions are made about the organic objects being tested, conclusions that don't fit with long periods of time are thrown out. If I'm walking down the street and find a bucket of water, I can test the bucket, I can test the water but neither test nor no matter how many tests I perform will tell me where the bucket came from, where the water came from, nor how the water got in the bucket because the bucket was not observed being put there and the water wasn't observed being put in the bucket. To test the water and the bucket only and say that science can determine how long the bucket was there and how it and the water got there is not science.
You plead science is in its infancy and that is why they don't know some things. My answer is the same. True science can never tell us about origins of life or the universe because those origins are not observable, testable repeatable.
Your final quote where the encyclopedia says “…how evolution occurs is still a matter of debate, but that it occurs is a scientific fact.” is like saying the water is in the bucket because it is there and that is proof it got there the way we said it did because anyway except the way we say would be supernatural and science does not include the supernatural.
How or when things occurred that were not observed and are not repeatable and therefore not testable is speculation, and that is NOT science. If by evolution, you simply mean change within a species, of course this happens – dogs- are a perfect example. But one kind, like the canine kind changing into another like the feline kind has NEVER been observed. Scientist tout all day long how there is a change in a species and say it is evolution in action but never hear about changing to a different kind. Darwins finches still remained finches. The Bible says in Genesis that each animal would reproduce according to its kind. The bird kind, the insect kind, the elephant kind, the fish kind, horse kind, dog kind, cat kind, etc. All animals stay within their kind.
Thank you for your response and remember that I will never say and I hope not imply that a Christian HAS to believe the way I do in a literal six-day creation to be saved and in a relationship with the living God.

[arcura]

JimGunther,
You're welcome.
Fred

[JimGunther]

Homesell, I think we might agree on the big picture more than is apparent but perhaps not on some specific items.

You said: "True science can never tell us about origins of life or the universe because those origins are not observable, testable repeatable."

I think it is unwise to state what science will never do, I think we will be amazed to see what science will have done in the next 1000 years or so, if we are still in the position to advance that far.

But you read what I said about the origin of the universe. I don't think its explainable without God, so we are close to a shared position on that matter.

I'll have to admit that the business about the water and the bucket is lost to me, carbon dating has its uses and limitations, and like every other tool in science, it either gets better as we go along, or replaced with another technique.

I realize you don't "buy" what the encyclopedia says for the reasons you stated, such as "How or when things occurred that were not observed and are not repeatable and therefore not testable is speculation, and that is NOT science."

But as a former police officer I know that things do not have to be observed to be proven. Its not the actual event that has to be repeated, it's the steps in the scientific method that are repeated and verified by anyone who repeats the technique to get the same conclusion, even if its from bones and dirt.

But let me mention what I see as the major difference in the way you and I look at things. You are obviously a man of great faith who holds tightly to the principles held in the Bible. I personally consider myself to be of a similar mind. But when you see science claiming that one species changed to another, or claiming that the Earth was created in billions of years instead of six days, you raise objections. You feel the need to try and refute these conclusions based upon your faith in the Bible and the explanations it lays out for how everything got here and what we are supposed to do now that we are here.

I too have faith in what the Bible says, though I do not consider myself a religious person. I took a lot of astronomy in college and see that science cannot explain the origin of our universe beyond the notion that there was a big bang. I recognize that science has a lot yet to learn and I read in the encyclopedia about evolution. I read the creation stories in the Bible and wonder if there is a contradiction.

But my solution to all this is that I recognize that neither science nor the Bible is going to give me all the answers. Science can't explain everything we see around us because it is so new and I doubt that it will ever be able to explain everything. The Bible doesn't reveal all the answers either, because, if it did, there would be no need for faith, and faith is, of course, the major aspect of the story that the Bible tells.

So I don't try to compare, contrast or justify the Bible with science. I don't think it can be done and I see no purpose in it. My faith in the Bible is good enough for me. I know that there will come a time when I will no longer be walking the Earth and all these mysteries will be revealed to me. I can wait.

[arcura]

JimGunther,
I agree with your position on that.
Who or what was the banger that started the big bang?
Considering what came of it up till now that who or what must have been rational and of great intelligence.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[homesell]

Hello Jim,
I appreciate your position. As the last line of my statements said, I certainly do believe that one can be in a saving knowledge of God and still believe in some form of evolution.
I realize believing the bible is infallible and without error is weird in today's world, but my worldview shapes the way I look at the evidence, just as everyone has a worldview that filters how they interpret the evidence. For example, an evolution worldview looks at the grand canyon and says, "a little bit of water a long, long, time." A creationist looks at the same evidence and says, "A whole lot of water(Noah's flood) and a short(about 1 year) time. Even Scientists are human and they have a worldview that shapes their interpretation of the evidence. There is just no such thing as a totally unbiased witness(except for God)
Since you obviously know some science, you probably know that there is still a lot of controversy between scientists about the big bang(and not just bible believing scientists either) because of the breaking of many scientific laws to have happened.
1st Law broken-something from nothing. No matter how incredibly small they want to make the original matter that supposedly contained everything that exploded into the current universe. Where did that super condensed ball come from?
2nd law broken - Law of cause and effect. Everything that happens(an effect) had a cause. What caused this incredibly small piece of matter from nowhere to explode?
3rd law broken - Law of dispersion. The only explanation they have of planets and stars forming is gas condensing which is the exact opposite of what happens to a gas.
4th Law broken - the Law of entropy which states that everything in the universe heads toward maximum disorder unless acted upon by an intelligent force. An explosion in an autobody shop will never create a car even with all the available parts there.
5th Law broken - Biogenesis. Scientist know, as even small children do, that you can't get life from non-life. Nothing inorganic can become organic.
Those are just a few of the reasons off the top of my head but that is why there are real scientists that object to the big bang theory.
To me it takes a lot more faith to look at a rock and say, "way, way back several billion years ago a rock like this one was my ancestor" than to believe a recorded account from an eyewitness(God)

[JimGunther]

Well Homesell I think I have taken my views on the issue about as far as I can and things like the "something from nothing" idea are what lead me to believe that the universe is not explainable without God. I'm going to move on to other issues and I appreciate the conversation!!

[homesell]

Science is observation of testable results by repeated actions.
For example, a bowling ball is dropped. It goes down. We call it gravity.
A bowling ball is dropped at the same time a feather is dropped and both objects are at the same height in a vacuum. They both drop at the same rate and hit the bottom at the same time. This is cool science.

[YoungHyperLink]

Jim et al,
Sorry if you'd rather close the discussion, but I wonder:
If you think there is a god powerful enough to bring about the origin of the universe, why do you think he would be incapable of letting us know about it?

[321543]

Simple answer really.

The same as our abilities to taste, feel or even our finger to move . They are miracles and gifts given to us by God our Father. Just as You or I would give a gift to one of our children to enjoy.

[arcura]

YoungHyper.
He did let us know about it.
Fred