[De Maria]

Asking pronounced that man can discern something of God's nature.

Two things.

1. As I said before, I believe creation has been corrupted by Satan. So, we can't really see God as He is from the resulting good mixed with chaos. But, we see glimpses of the goodness of God, His love, in the love of creatures for their progeny and in the stretching of the leaves of plants towards the sun.

2. We also see in nature, the wisdom of God. Although, again, this has been corrupted by Satan to some extent, so that accidents occur. For the most part, creation works without a glitch. The sun, moon and stars move in the heavens with a precision which no manmade clock can match. We set our clocks by the stars.

The plants and animals have survival mechanisms in them which couldn't have evolved without wisdom having some input. Did the Himalayan Crickets get together and say, "hey, we'll permit ourselves to be frozen and thawed every year and thats how we'll survive the winter." Of course not! Wisdom was involved in creating them that way.

[Akoue]

Two things.

1. As I said before, I believe creation has been corrupted by Satan. So, we can't really see God as He is from the resulting good mixed with chaos. But, we see glimpses of the goodness of God, His love, in the love of creatures for their progeny and in the stretching of the leaves of plants towards the sun.

2. We also see in nature, the wisdom of God. Although, again, this has been corrupted by Satan to some extent, so that accidents occur. For the most part, creation works without a glitch. The sun, moon and stars move in the heavens with a precision which no manmade clock can match. We set our clocks by the stars.

The plants and animals have survival mechanisms in them which couldn't have evolved without wisdom having some input. Did the Himalayan Crickets get together and say, "hey, we'll permit ourselves to be frozen and thawed every year and thats how we'll survive the winter." Of course not! Wisdom was involved in creating them that way.

You raise another really good point here, De Maria. It is customary to distinguish between moral evil and natural evil (natural disasters, etc.). But for the Fathers, this is a meaningless distinction inasmuch as natural evil is a consequence of moral evil. Sin erodes the harmonious order of creation (this is how St. Augustine and St. Gregory of Nyssa put it). Death is an example. Fred made a really interesting remark in the other thread, that where there is death there is a need for redemption, this because death is the consequence of sin, of moral evil.

[De Maria]

Right - the question is what that transformation is - to make us gods? No.

St. Paul says that there are many gods:
1 Corinthians 8:5
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

Scripture says NIV:
Psalm 8:5
You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.

The term translated "heavenly beings" is elohim:

h430 אלהים 'elohiym

Elohym as you know, is the same word used for God.

I would say then, that if God says were created a little bit lower than gods, then He could make us into gods, if that is His will. And since Scripture says we will be like Him and we will share in His nature, then, apparently it is His will.

[Tj3]

St. Paul says that there are many gods:
1 Corinthians 8:5
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

Read the rest...

1 Cor 8:4-7
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
NKJV

Scripture says NIV:
Psalm 8:5
You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.

The term translated "heavenly beings" is elohim:

h430 אלהים 'elohiym

Elohym as you know, is the same word used for God.

Get thee to a lexicon! The word Elohim can mean gods, God or judges. It effectively means mighty ones. The proper meaning of the word, like many wiords, depends upon the context.

I would say then, that if God says were created a little bit lower than gods, then He could make us into gods, if that is His will.

You are welcome to believe as you wish. It is just not in scripture.

[JoeT777]

Two things.

1. As I said before, I believe creation has been corrupted by Satan. So, we can't really see God as He is from the resulting good mixed with chaos. But, we see glimpses of the goodness of God, His love, in the love of creatures for their progeny and in the stretching of the leaves of plants towards the sun.

I disagree with this to the extent that the only thing Satan has the power over is to corrupt humankind. In my opinion this is why man is the focus of Satan. We do know that man was given dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26) but, (I don't think) scripture doesn't address what Satan has dominion over.

2. We also see in nature, the wisdom of God. Although, again, this has been corrupted by Satan to some extent, so that accidents occur. For the most part, creation works without a glitch. The sun, moon and stars move in the heavens with a precision which no manmade clock can match. We set our clocks by the stars.

I disagree in that there are no accidents. Everything happens according to God's plan. The reason why we see 'accidents' is that humankind substitutes its own plan for God's plan. (Akoue: Notice the absence of MAN – inclusive of Woman).

The plants and animals have survival mechanisms in them which couldn't have evolved without wisdom having some input. Did the Himalayan Crickets get together and say, "hey, we'll permit ourselves to be frozen and thawed every year and thats how we'll survive the winter." Of course not! Wisdom was involved in creating them that way.

It was God's plan. It wasn't the Cricket plan. If you were Cricket wouldn't your plan do away with cold altogether and just have eternal summer?

Just thinking out loud.

JoeT

[Akoue]

I disagree with this to the extent that the only thing Satan has the power over is to corrupt humankind. In my opinion this is why man is the focus of Satan. We do know that man was given dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26) but, (I don’t think) scripture doesn't address what Satan has dominion over.

Okay, you've got to give my brain a rest. You're making good points faster than I can think through them

Scripture does say that Satan is the ruler of this age [ton archon tou aionou toutou], though it's less than transparent to me what that means. "This age" is vague, and it doesn't clearly state what it means that Satan is the ruler of it. As a fallen angel, though, Satan does enjoy powers we do not. Is this what you are thinking when you say that he only has power to corrupt?

(Interestingly, some Gnostics thought that it was saying not that Satan is the archon but that he is the arche, the source or origin of the physical world. But this is just an aside that's probably only of interest to geeks like me.)

[JoeT777]

You raise another really good point here, De Maria. It is customary to distinguish between moral evil and natural evil (natural disasters, etc.). But for the Fathers, this is a meaningless distinction inasmuch as natural evil is a consequence of moral evil. Sin erodes the harmonious order of creation (this is how St. Augustine and St. Gregory of Nyssa put it). Death is an example. Fred made a really interesting remark in the other thread, that where there is death there is a need for redemption, this because death is the consequence of sin, of moral evil.

It’s true, Evil is the most general, since the privation of form or right order or due measure in anything, whether subject or act, has the nature of evil. But, to do evil (sin) requires conscious cooperation with evil.
I disagree that there can be a thing such as natural evil or evil found in the things in nature. We can say that things are evil in the sense that they cause harm, e.g. a rock that falls and hit me on the head. – don’t anybody get any bright ideas. We can say that the rock was evil, in that it hurts my head, but there is no intrinsic evil in the rock. It was simply doing its thing hanging on the ledge. Evil requires conscience cooperation. The rock is incapable of cooperating; it must obey the laws of nature. How do we know whether God allowed the rock to fall that very instant that my head was directly below. You know, to knock some sense into me.

JoeT

[Akoue]

It’s true, Evil is the most general, since the privation of form or right order or due measure in anything, whether subject or act, has the nature of evil. But, to do evil (sin) requires conscious cooperation with evil.
I disagree that there can be a thing such as natural evil or evil found in the things in nature. We can say that things are evil in the sense that they cause harm, e.g. a rock that falls and hit me on the head. – don’t anybody get any bright ideas. We can say that the rock was evil, in that it hurts my head, but there is no intrinsic evil in the rock. It was simply doing its thing hanging on the ledge. Evil requires conscience cooperation. The rock is incapable of cooperating; it must obey the laws of nature. How do we know whether or not God allowed the rock to fall that very instant that my head was directly below. You know, to knock some sense into me.

JoeT

I agree. Anything that doesn't involve conscious, deliberative agency, can only be said to be evil in an attenuated sense of that word. The Fathers reject the moral evil/natural evil distinction. And I think it's silly.

[JoeT777]

Okay, you've got to give my brain a rest. You're making good points faster than I can think through them

Scripture does say that Satan is the ruler of this age [ton archon tou aionou toutou], though it's less than transparent to me what that means. "This age" is vague, and it doesn't clearly state what it means that Satan is the ruler of it. As a fallen angel, though, Satan does enjoy powers we do not. Is this what you are thinking when you say that he only has power to corrupt?

(Interestingly, some Gnostics thought that it was saying not that Satan is the archon but that he is the arche, the source or origin of the physical world. But this is just an aside that's probably only of interest to geeks like me.)

(a little story) My boss and I were negotiating a contract a long time ago. We won the debate. But for some inexplicable reason, I continued the debate giving all the good points as to why we should have a LARGE fee. In front of the client, my boss turns to me and said, “You’ve won, SHUT-UP!” I don’t think I ever learned that lesson.

So, in that vein let me suggest that there is a vast difference in concept between being ruler over (having influence) and having dominion over (dominance, domination, complete control)

I would suggest that Satan does not enjoy power OVER man; rather he can only influence or sway mankind. That’s why he has to act with such guile; unless and except we cooperate with him does Satan have power. His power only resides in our cooperation (I pray).

Wouldn’t you think?

[Akoue]

(a little story) My boss and I were negotiating a contract a long time ago. We won the debate. But for some inexplicable reason, I continued the debate giving all the good points as to why we should have a LARGE fee. In front of the client, my boss turns to me and said, “You’ve won, SHUT-UP!” I don’t think I ever learned that lesson.

Good story. I like that.

So, in that vein let me suggest that there is a vast difference in concept between being ruler over (having influence) and having dominion over (dominance, domination, complete control)

I'm not sure what dominion really means, to be honest. If humans have dominion over the earth, then "dominion" can't mean "complete control", because we don't have that. (Of course, what we were really given isn't dominion but stewardship.) So I'm not sure what to make of the distinction between being ruler and having dominion--although I agree with you that there is a distinction there.

I would suggest that Satan does not enjoy power OVER man; rather he can only influence or sway mankind. That’s why he has to act with such guile; unless and except we cooperate with him does Satan have power. His power only resides in our cooperation (I pray).

This is something I've been thinking about for years. In fact, I almost started a thread on this a couple of days ago. I do think that Satan's power extends beyond mere influence. Think about possession. What Satan doesn't have the power to do is to damn us against our will. For that we must cooperate. But he can do lots of other stuff to, or with, us against our will.

[JoeT777]

Good story. I like that.

Yeah, I was mad at the boss for weeks for making me look foolish. Being rather slow, it took that long to get it.

This is something I've been thinking about for years. In fact, I almost started a thread on this a couple of days ago. I do think that Satan's power extends beyond mere influence. Think about possession. What Satan doesn't have the power to do is to damn us against our will. For that we must cooperate. But he can do lots of other stuff to, or with, us against our will.

Possession was precisely what I was thinking of when I suggested that Satan’s powers are constrained. I’ve been taught that even possession requires some type of conscious cooperation, usually when sin is habitual, to allow Satan to enter and take control.

I’m going to study the backside of my eyelids for several hours. I’ve been told there are great and wondrous things there.

JoeT

[Akoue]

Possession was precisely what I was thinking of when I suggested that Satan’s powers are constrained. I’ve been taught that even possession requires some type of conscious cooperation, usually when sin is habitual, to allow Satan to enter and take control.

What about Judas? He was an Apostle of the Lord, and we are told that Satan entered him.