[De Maria]

OK, Then exactly how or what do you mean by this comment?
Quote
"The only way I can answer that is that they came through Christ, to the Father, after they died. Does that mean that some who don't know Christ in this life may come to the Father through Christ after they die also?"
From that I am reading that you are believing that the Jews or all people can be saved after death. Am I wrong in that interpretation?

It was a question. How did the Jews go through Christ?

Quote
"The only other thing I can figure is that you are somehow misunderstanding the doctrine of Purgatory, not realizing that those in Purgatory are already saved.How can people that are in Hell be saved????

Hell means the "abode of the dead". There is a hell of the damned, which is eternal fire. There is a hell which is like a prison, to which Jesus is said to have gone and preached to the dead.

This prison corresponds to Purgatory. They are people who are destined for heaven but go there to be purified:
1 Corinthians 3:15 (King James Version)

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Since you seem to be denying that this could happen in the after life, I assume you mean that these conditions which you list must happen when one is alive."That is correct. There is to my knowledge nowhere in the scriptures that claim that a person can be prayed to salvation after they are dead. This I understand is a Catholic belief am I right or wrong on that?

Wrong. We pray that they be loosed of their sins. But they will be loosed of their sins whether we pray or not. By God's grace they are being purified per 1 Cor 3:15 mentioned above.

Quote
"But you seem to have left out the name of Jesus.

So, are you saying that one can ask for salvation without mentioning Jesus? Or should I assume that you mean "salvation through Jesus"?"

That I did. I guess I assumed that everyone here on a Christian board would realize or understand that. If you did not, then that is my mistake and I apologize for that omission.

I just wondered. Although we're all Christians, we have varying beliefs. We even have Christians on this board who defend homosexuality. I had always assumed that Christians knew that homosexuality was an abomination to God.

So, I didn't mean to insult you, I just wanted to make sure whether the ommission was intentional.

Quote
"Also, I don't think that God acts differently from one time to another. If God is absolute. And one must come to the Father through Christ, I suspect the Jewish Fathers also had to go through Christ to be saved.

The only way I can see that happening is in the after life. Because I believe that most of them died without knowing Jesus. Am I right?"

How can that happen. Jesus did not appear until 2,000 years ago. Until then the Jews were under the rule of law and the ten commandments. Even today the Jews do not accept Jesus was the son of God. so in reality are they not still under the old testament law of Moses? Besides we are not discussing the Jews, but new testament peoples.

So, in your opinion, God deals with the Jews differently than with "New Testament peoples"?

[adam7gur]

That makes sense to a point. Because the Jews of Jesus day didn't recognize Christ:

So, although the Jews had the word of God, they did not recognize Christ therein.
Therefore, even though your message seems to make sense, it doesn't account for the Jews skepticism of Christ.

My friend!
It was the Jews that recocnize Jesus as the incarnated Word of God and it was the Jews that before all of us accepted Him as the incarnated Word of God.
We are here today because of Peter and John and Paul... and they were Jews, they were the first one to recocnize and to believe.
And something else to think about... Imagine living at that time and seeing Jesus the way He was here on earth.I mean how contraversial that picture is to The Word's glory that He had before His incarnation!Surely it would take a lot of time for me to recocnize and to believe , and maybe that's why God set my time on earth now and not then!
Christ is THE WHOLE thing , I think we should not separate His mission into before and after flesh!

[De Maria]

My friend!
It was the Jews that recocnize Jesus as the incarnated Word of God and it was the Jews that before all of us accepted Him as the incarnated Word of God.
We are here today because of Peter and John and Paul....and they were Jews, they were the first one to recocnize and to believe.
And something else to think about ...Imagine living at that time and seeing Jesus the way He was here on earth.I mean how contraversial that picture is to The Word's glory that He had before His incarnation!Surely it would take a lot of time for me to recocnize and to believe , and maybe that's why God set my time on earth now and not then!
Christ is THE WHOLE thing , I think we should not seperate His mission into before and after flesh!

I understand what you are saying. I'm trying to understand the verse in question.

Although Sts. Peter, John and Paul were Jews who believed. Other Jews such as Annas and Caiaphas did not. And it appears that the majority of the Pharisees and Scribes did not. Unless I'm misunderstanding the Scriptures.

I believe that all must come through Christ.
I believe the Jews made it to heaven.

So, my quandary is, how did they come through Christ?

[adam7gur]

I understand what you are saying. I'm trying to understand the verse in question.

Although Sts. Peter, John and Paul were Jews who believed. Other Jews such as Annas and Caiaphas did not. And it appears that the majority of the Pharisees and Scribes did not. Unless I'm misunderstanding the Scriptures.

I believe that all must come through Christ.
I believe the Jews made it to heaven.

So, my quandary is, how did they come through Christ?

OT Jews came to the Father through The Word!OT Jews had the law and who is the law pointing out to from the beginning to the end of it?The law is pointing out to The Word.OT Jews had the law , had The Word and they came to the Father through the law , through The Word.When The Word came into flesh as Jesus Christ , He did not change the law, He did not cancel it,but He tought OT Jews how to live by and WITH the law,by being WITH them,because HE,Jesus Christ ,IS THE LAW!In other words ,the law was WITH them in flesh as Jesus Christ teaching them!!

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hope this makes sense my friend!

P.S.
Of course people like the Pharisees and the Scribes ,or Annas and Caiaphas or before them Saul the king or later kings of Judah and Israel did not obey the law,did not obey The Word,did not obey Jesus Christ.One cannot say that he/she obeys the law and at the same time obey not Jesus Christ because Jesus tought us the law and not something else.Obeying the law , is obeying Jesus Christ,and as a result of that, going to the Father through Christ!

[De Maria]

OT Jews came to the Father through The Word!OT Jews had the law and who is the law pointing out to from the beginning to the end of it?The law is pointing out to The Word.OT Jews had the law , had The Word and they came to the Father through the law , through The Word.When The Word came into flesh as Jesus Christ , He did not change the law, He did not cancel it,but He tought OT Jews how to live by and WITH the law,by being WITH them,because HE,Jesus Christ ,IS THE LAW!In other words ,the law was WITH them in flesh as Jesus Christ teaching them!!!

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hope this makes sence my friend!

P.S.
Of course people like the Pharisees and the Scribes ,or Annas and Caiaphas or before them Saul the king or later kings of Judah and Israel did not obey the law,did not obey The Word,did not obey Jesus Christ.One cannot say that he/she obeys the law and at the same time obey not Jesus Christ because Jesus tought us the law and not something else.Obeying the law , is obeying Jesus Christ,and as a result of that, going to the Father through Christ!

That is logical and makes sense. Thanks.

[sndbay]

I understand what you are saying. I'm trying to understand the verse in question.

Although Sts. Peter, John and Paul were Jews who believed. Other Jews such as Annas and Caiaphas did not. And it appears that the majority of the Pharisees and Scribes did not. Unless I'm misunderstanding the Scriptures.

I believe that all must come through Christ.
I believe the Jews made it to heaven.

So, my quandary is, how did they come through Christ?

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I feel that the body returns to dust as it says in Genesis, and the soul spirit returns to the Lord. The question is, which side of the gulf do each go.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Important Note:
Romans 9:10-13 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Stumblingstone/ rock of offence
Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

He that believes righteously that Christ is worthy as the Saving Grace of God and confesses their belief by mouth without shame (free will of heart and soul shows righteousness in Christ)
But remember ... 1 Corinthians 4:5

Romans 10:10-11 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

As for the OT it is written they overcame.. And read beginning with Romans 8:26 through that tells how the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us ... because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

[450donn]

Deleted

[Choux]

c, That is correct... Christians cannot believe that there are many ways to salvation. It is spelled out in the New Testament that there is only one way to salvation and God... and the verse you quoted makes that crystal clear.

[450donn]

Never mind I guess I finally figured it out

[adam7gur]

[QUOTE=seeker08;1503757]I We don't have to believe or do any kind of works to make His finished work take effect. It takes effect on everyone on its own. The ramifications of His death, burial & resurrection have been applied to ALL without exception both believers & unbelievers.
Through Jesus all of humanity has been unified and made one with God and with each other. Through Him all buddists and atheists and satanists and other religious people are saved. [QUOTE]

I think the parable of the Father with the two sons states against this opinion.
The younger son had to return to the Father , so unless a satanist returns to the Father , I see not Christ's blood working for that person!Unless of course you mean that all those people return to the Father.Otherwise... NO!

[Maggie 3]

The only way someone could come to the Father apart from Jesus
Is if that person had lived a completely sinless life, in thought, word, and deed--
And no one but Jeus Himself fits that profile.

Maggie 3

[Orthodox]

It is telling us That Jesus is Is God and or prays goes too him and he tells them to the father

[paraclete]

I am the way, the truth and the life. No Man comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6

Is not an invitation to debate, as you say it is not very tolerant but then if we read the Scriptures we see Jesus wasn't very tolerant of religious people. It is man's idea that there should be many ways to God. It is God's idea that there should only be one way to God.

Scripture tells us that God was very tolerant of man's mistakes in the beginning but that the level of corruption became so bad that God decided to destroy it all and start again. Faith saved Noah but this meant that there was a bridge between the old corrupt world and the new one and the nature of man once again showed forth, God eventually put in place the answer, Jesus Christ. The only answer for God, the only way that man can have a true relationship with God is to believe the one he sent. Not a matter of tolerance but of truth

[classyT]

I am the way, the truth and the life. No Man comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6

Is not an invitation to debate, as you say it is not very tolerant but then if we read the Scriptures we see Jesus wasn't very tolerant of religious people. It is man's idea that there should be many ways to God. It is God's idea that there should only be one way to God.

Scripture tells us that God was very tolerant of man's mistakes in the beginning but that the level of corruption became so bad that God decided to destroy it all and start again. Faith saved Noah but this meant that there was a bridge between the old corrupt world and the new one and the nature of man once again showed forth, God eventually put in place the answer, Jesus Christ. The only answer for God, the only way that man can have a true relationship with God is to believe the one he sent. Not a matter of tolerance but of truth

Truth will always be truth and it doesn't matter whether WE think it is tolerant or not. It is what it is.

[jakester]

That makes sense to a point. Because the Jews of Jesus day didn't recognize Christ:

So, although the Jews had the word of God, they did not recognize Christ therein.
Therefore, even though your message seems to make sense, it doesn't account for the Jews skepticism of Christ.

De Maria - I was wanting to add my two thoughts regarding your comment because I think there is something that is not being considered.

Did the Jews in Jesus day fail to recognize him? Yes and no. There were countless Jews who followed Jesus: the disciples (the 12 - not Judas Iscariot), Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, John the Baptist, the countless other nameless people who presumably followed his teaching. Yes, it's true that Jesus encouraged people to search the Scriptures to see that he was the Messiah, but his miracles were further proof that God was credentialing him as such in the midst of the people. After time, the conversations between Christ and the people ended up going in the direction of: "show us a sign and we'll believe you." So De Maria, in a sense the Nation of Israel did not "recogize" Jesus as their Messiah (although pockets of people did certainly), it wasn't because their wasn't evidence of his Messiahship both from scriptures and by his miracles. It was because of the hardness of their hearts. Jesus said this:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 35 Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

The key words there are "...you would not." They were not willing to hear his words or obey him because their hearts were hard towards God, the same way they were hard again towards God before, when they killed many of his prophets... and it culimated in the killing of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

Sincerely.

[paraclete]

And the same way in which peoples hearts are hard today, the world has not changed