[Tj3]

Can't fairly see how, since I've been asking people why it's absence from the NT makes it a bad thing. But whatever.

You know, you don't need to argue over everything. You clarified that's fine. That is what I was asking. It was a simple straightforward question. If instead of getting defensive, if you had just answered when I first asked, it would have been done and gone.

Let's move on.

[Akoue]

Jawohl!

[saintjoan]

No! Deuteronomy 18:9

[Akoue]

No! Deuteronomy 18:9

So you're saying that making the sign of the cross is an "abomination"?

[Wondergirl]

Perhaps I'm a bit confused. Is the idea supposed to be that making the sign of the Cross is a *bad* thing? The Bible doesn't tell me to cross my hands when I pray, but I typically do. It doesn't tell me to close my eyes, but I typically do. Are these *bad* rituals?

I wouldn't call the sole activity of folding my hands or closing my eyes during prayer a ritual. Neither is the sole action of reading to your child before bedtime or tucking her in. The ritual is not each individual activity, but is the entire bundle -- having a snack, brushing teeth, putting on jammies, snuggling into bed with teddy bear, hearing Daddy read a story, his tucking in and turning off the light as he says good night. The child's ritual might include details such as starting to whimper piteously, asking for a drink of water and one more hug, and that ritual might be the prelude to Daddy's ritual response.

For my daily prayer ritual, it could be going into a certain room alone at 9 p.m. sitting in a less-than-comfortable chair, looking at a painting of the Good Shepherd, talking out loud in extemporaneous conversation with God for as long as it takes to express my praise, thanks, intercessions, and needs. Your daily prayer ritual could be lying in bed after you wake up in the morning, closing your eyes, folding your hands, and mentally saying a memorized prayer.

A ritual is all the actions done in a regular and expected/planned manner as in baptism or in the taking of Communion or in the putting up of the Christmas tree.

[Akoue]

I wouldn't call folding my hands or closing my eyes during prayer a ritual. Neither is reading to your child before bedtime and tucking her in. The ritual is not each individual activity, but is the entire bundle -- having a snack, brushing teeth, putting on jammies, snuggling into bed with teddy bear, hearing Daddy read a story, his tucking in and turning off the light as he says good night. The child's ritual might include details such as starting to whimper piteously, asking for a drink of water and one more hug, and that ritual might be the prelude to Daddy's ritual response.

The ritual is all the actions done in a regular and expected manner in the baptism or in the taking of Communion or in the putting up of the Christmas tree.

Fair enough. I was thinking that there are rituals of greater and less complexity. But I'm okay with saying that making the sign of the Cross isn't a ritual itself but is only part of a ritual. That seems reasonable to me.

[Wondergirl]

Fair enough. I was thinking that there are rituals of greater and less complexity. But I'm okay with saying that making the sign of the Cross isn't a ritual itself but is only part of a ritual. That seems reasonable to me.

You had wondered about the one action of closing eyes or folding hands being a ritual in itself. I would say they are pieces of a ritual.

Making the sign of the cross could be part of a personal ritual when entering church, kneeling at the entrance to the nave, smiling at the statues of Christ and his mother, walking forward to light a candle, and then finding a pew to sit in. It's a ritual if you do it all the time, the same way.

Now that I checked Wikipedia, making the sign of the cross is more of a ritual than I had imagined --

The open right hand is used in the Churches of the West. The five open fingers represent The Five Wounds of Christ. Though this is the most common method of crossing by Western Christians, other forms are sometimes used. The West also employs the "Small Sign of the Cross" in which a small cross is traced with the thumb over the forehead, lips, and breast of the individual while whispering the words "May Christ's words be in my mind, on my lips, and in my heart". This is used at the Proclamation of the Gospel at Holy Mass and also is commonly used when blessing oneself with holy water when leaving or entering a church. In the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the thumb, index, and middle finger are brought to a point, symbolizing the Trinity (the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit/Ghost, three persons sharing a single essence), the remaining two fingers (kept pressed together and touching the palm) representing the human and divine natures of Jesus Christ. However, the Russian Orthodox in the past used two fingers brought to a point with the three remaining fingers pressed down. Russian Old Believers still use this form. The Oriental Orthodox (Armenians, Copts, Ethiopians etc.) generally use the "Western" direction as well, though often with the Byzantine finger formation.

The sign of the Cross is made by touching the hand sequentially to the forehead, sternum, and both shoulders, accompanied by the Trinitarian formula: at the forehead: In the name of the Father (or In nomine Patris in Latin); at the stomach or heart: and of the Son (et Filii); across the shoulders: and of the Holy Spirit/Ghost (et Spiritus Sancti); and finally: Amen.

There are several interpretations, according to Church Fathers: the forehead symbolizes Heaven; the stomach, the earth; the shoulders, the place and sign of power. Also, the hand to the forehead may be seen as a prayer to the Father for wisdom; the hand to the stomach as a prayer to the Son who became incarnate; and the hand to the shoulders as a prayer to the Holy Spirit.

There are some variations: for example a person may first place the right hand in holy water. After moving the hand from one shoulder to the other, it may be returned to the stomach. It may also be accompanied by the recitation of a prayer e.g. the Jesus Prayer, or simply "Lord have mercy". In some cultures it is customary to kiss one's hand or fingers at the conclusion of the gesture.

[Akoue]

I suppose the way to think of it is that there are rituals within rituals, some of greater and some of less complexity.

[Wondergirl]

I suppose the way to think of it is that there are rituals within rituals, some of greater and some of less complexity.

The main thing is that rituals not be empty--not the rituals at home, the ones with children, those with a spouse or partner, and definitely not the ones in religion that are to keep worship in good order and help the worshipper meet his God.

[JoeT777]

the main thing is that rituals not be empty

Bingo!

[Akoue]

The main thing is that rituals not be empty--not the rituals at home, the ones with children, those with a spouse or partner, and definitely not the ones in religion that are to keep worship in good order and help the worshipper meet his God.

Genau!

[Wondergirl]

Genau!

Gesundheit!

[arcura]

De Maria,
Yes I pray the sign of the Cross.
I have seen Orthodix use it and Lutherans and Anglicans also.
I do it as a blessing for self and others present such as when saying grace.
I believe it is also a definition or identity statement such as a person who is giving orders OR information or a message "In the name of the King" or in the name of some authority.

Joe T
Wow.
Thanks so much for that very interesting information.
Peace and kindness,
Fred