[Tj3]

cogs,
You are right.
We can and should try to please God by doing what He asks and commands us to do.
Those are the works he want from us.
The bible does tell us to "WORK out our salvation."
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Scripture also says that salvation is not by or of works.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Right again works alone does not save.
The bible says that faith with works saves.
Faith without works is dead, so the bible says in many ways and places.
Salvation come from the grace of God when we do what He says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[cogs]

arcura, it seems we are in agreement that the work of jesus is ongoing in our lives. Therefore, as jesus said, that he only does what he sees the father doing, it's important to be able to see what the father is doing.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Right again works alone does not save.
The bible says that faith with works saves.

No Fred it doesn't. In fact it says the exact opposite.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Faith without works is dead, so the bible says in many ways and places.

Right, and time and again the context of this, both in English and Koine Greek has been shown to you, but you ignore the context. First and foremost, as I showed previously in this thread,the Greek ford for "faith" is the same word as "faithfulness". Thus "faithfulness without works is dead". If you are claiming to have faith in God and we see no works as evidence, then you are not being faithful to your professing or to God, therefore do you really have faith?

This is in concert with the context in English also. Further, scripture does not contradict itself. You cannot take one verse out of context and then ignore Ephesians 2:8, for example.

[WakkieRob]

It is Jesus we look to not GOD those Jesus relays to us his blessing.
GOD will judge us but we will not judge the almighty the Messier shell relay info to God but only if he is not forgotten.

[WakkieRob]

I'm just a Shire Lad

[JoeT777]

Rob - Here's my argument in summary. In order for me to be justified by God and receive mercy, God has to extend mercy to me and justify me. I am a sinner and I cannot earn my salvation...I can only hope in the mercy of God. If I have been a recipient of God's mercy and forgiveness, there ought to be a change in me, if not immediately, at least over time. I'm not saying that I need to be producing all kinds of good works. Fundamentally, the Spirit of God's presence in my life as a true child of God is being revealed more and more through my actions and my attitudes. I still sin and fall short of the glory of God, but if I am a believer, my attitude must be changing to reveal that I want to be good and that I long to be made right again. Also, my attitude towards believers ought to be one of compassion and mercy, seeing them as fellow heirs of the kingdom of God and as such, deserving of my respect and love. Again, these things aren't immediate but they grow in me over time if I have been changed by God.
This is my understanding of faith working together with works.

jakester:

Your views are well presented; most Catholics would have a hard time disagreeing with you. I didn't see anything that would stand out as different from my understanding of Catholicism except for our respective approach to God's grace of faith.

It's my understanding that God's graces are supernatural gifts to mankind for salvation, requiring the cooperation of the recipient. We can discern two types of grace. The first is actual grace which is a benevolent gift or an unwarranted gratuitous gift. Actual graces include those things we receive such as good looks, patients, intelligence, wisdom, etc. The second type is the supernatural sanctifying graces which are given men to obtain holiness. Sanctifying grace prepares for redemption in that it predisposes one to holiness.

In either event, grace is a gift. And just like any other gift, there is an effort to reach out on the part of the benefactor, and an act of cooperation in the receipt of the gift; it takes two individuals, two distinct wills; one giving the other receiving. There must be a synergism between God and man when these graces are conferred; the free human will and the will of God (the Holy Spirit) work together to bring about spiritual regeneration or salvation. [cf. Trent, Sixth Session, Cannon IV] An opposing view would be the Lutheran view would reject any type of cooperation with the concept of “once saved always saved”, the certitude of justification. The Lutheran views man as depraved and as such saving graces must be forced on man. Thus, Luther rejects “free will” while Calvin's views of a faith as fiduciary denying that man can be holy, a faith that merely covers sin. Catholics however believe in a justification through penance and good works actually removes sin. Consequently the Catholic “faith” is much different from the 'struck by lightning' knowledge that waits for a predestined salvation and requires work. Part of a continuing participation in faith, Catholics operate within the sanctifying graces offered in the sacraments; a “work” by most Protestant definitions. Whereby, Catholics hold that to achieve a supernatural end the “works” of the sacraments provide Catholics with the necessary supernatural means. Sacramental graces are effectual, unlike Zwiglian grace that memorializes a profession, or Luther's sacraments that are merely fiduciary.

The slight deviations held by some Protestants miss the essence of the two natures of Christ, man and God; faith and works. Christ may have died for our sins, (an act of God's merciful grace), but he lived along with his mother and disciples not only to hear or speak the word of God, but to personify, “do it” – unquestionably a “work” as defined by most Protestant faiths. (cf Luke 8:21)

The Vatican Council (III, 3) says that "faith is a supernatural virtue by which we with the inspiration and assistance of God's grace, believe those things to be true which He has revealed". I often think of works as a requitement of faith and cooperation between gratuitous grace of faith and works. It takes both acceptance and cooperation with God's grace of Truth for salvation to be efficacious. Based on Scripture, it's not the usual nature of God to strike us dumb with an irresistible faith.

When read with the apostolic teachings of the Catholic Church we can see that Christ lived and worked his faith both internally and externally. He didn't simply “believe” in God, he was a “doer” of God's words. So, it's no wonder that James gives us the same advice, “[W]ith meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.” (James 1:21-24.) Furthermore, Paul teaches us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (cf Phil 2:12). In short live your faith; believing is simply not enough.

So, you can see that while we agree in principle, a Catholic would say that we are redeemed by both faith and works, not by “faith alone” as is sometime heard.

JoeT

[Tj3]

It is Jesus we look to not GOD those Jesus relays to us his blessing.
GOD will judge us but we will not judge the almighty the Messier shell relay info to God but only if he is not forgotten.

Jesus is God.

[Galveston1]

A brief explanation:

We are saved by FAITH in the completed work of Calvary. We can and MUST know this.

Our FAITH is validated by our WORKS.

Simple, yes?

[arcura]

JoeT777,
Very well said.
The bible tells us often that we MUST work our faith for it to ve effective.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

So, you can see that while we agree in principle, a Catholic would say that we are redeemed by both faith and grace, not by “faith alone” as is sometime heard.

JoeT

The key here is how you define grace - grace in scripture means unmerited favour. Therefore works plays no part in salvation, nor do you find anything in scripture which would say that works plays any part in salvation.

[Tj3]

JoeT777,
Very well said.
The bible tells us often that we MUST work our faith for it to ve effective.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

No, it says that what we do validates our faith.

[JoeT777]

A brief explanation:

We are saved by FAITH in the completed work of Calvary. We can and MUST know this.

Our FAITH is validated by our WORKS.

Simple, yes?

I don’t understand, explain why God would need for those who surround me, validate the grace of faith given me? Should we go to Church, pick up our validation cards, and when asked if we have faith, show our proper “validation”? Or maybe we should cooperate with the grace given by God for love of God?

JoeT

[arcura]

Tj3,
Wrong ! The bible says many places and ins several ways that works are necessary
Here's and example.
We are to bear fruit. That's work.
Those who do not bear fruit will will suffer.
So Jesus says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Wrong ! The bible says many places and ins several ways that works are necessary
Here's and example.
We are to bear fruit. That's work.
Those who do not bear fruit will will suffer.

I note that you give no reference. Perhaps you mean this one:

Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

Note that this refers to those who bear fruit who are not saved, in which case the fruit that they bear by trying to keep the law led to death; or those who are saved bear fruit by serving the spirit - but they are first saved, so the fruit that they bear is the result of salvation.

Indeed, Jesus says that we cannot bear good fruit unless we are first saved:

John 15:4-5
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
NKJV

Where is the verse that says that works are required for us to be saved?

[arcura]

Tj3,
I see that you personally interpret that your way.
Of course that is your right to do so.
Yes with Jesus help I can do the work of bearing good fruit.
So you see I agree with what that passage clearly says and demonstrates.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I see that you personally interpret that your way.

No interpretation. I read what God says in His words. Let's look at these passages once again:

Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

John 15:4-5
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
NKJV

Do you have a private interpretation that differs with the clear reading of what the Bible says? If so, please explain how you can turn the meaning of this around to say something different than the clear reading of what the passage says?

Yes with Jesus help I can do the work of bearing good fruit.

If you are doing it with Jesus' help, then you are speaking as a person who professes to be saved, thus the works are not for salvation. You defeated your own private interpretation.

If I am wrong and if in fact you are saying that you are not saved and trying to earn your salvation through works, please advise.

BTW, I note that as of yet you have not posted a single verse which says that works are required for salvation.

[arcura]

Tj3,
I looked at them and did not change what I said.
Works alone do not save, but faith plus works do save.
WORK out your salvation with fear and trebling.
A faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD!!
So the bible says. So I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I looked at them and did not change what I said.

And you have so far failed to explain how your private interpretation changes them to mean the opposite of what they say.

Works alone do not save, but faith plus works do save.

Why won't you provide us with a verse which says this?

WORK out your salvation with fear and trebling.

This is speaking to those who are already saved about how they should behave as believers:

Phil 2:12-18
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. 17 Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 For the same reason you also be glad and rejoice with me.
NKJV

Once again, works follow salvation.

A faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD!!

Why do you keep repeating this one after your private interpretation has been refuted so many times, over so many years on so many boards?

First and foremost, as I showed previously in this thread,the Greek ford for "faith" is the same word as "faithfulness". Thus "faithfulness without works is dead". If you are claiming to have faith in God and we see no works as evidence, then you are not being faithful to your professing or to God, therefore do you really have faith?

Scripture does not contradict itself. You cannot take one verse out of context and then ignore Ephesians 2:8, for example.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

[WakkieRob]

The Devils your angel!

You are trick by your own ways who wants to be religious.