[margog85]

margog the issue is that you will not open your mind to some truth, you want it your way because you want your way period, And no homosexuality can not be interpreted many ways it is plain that it is wrong, the trouble is that you don't want to admit that you can be wrong, and that unless your way is "right" everyone else has to change thier way of thinking and in the end you want to force everyone to accept your beleif. In fact you are more guilty of forcing than those you are talking about
And in the end, moral values are and should be a consistant value. Those that see peverted sexual desires are moral are just wrong in every sense but if they wish to do thier own desires, it should not be forced on others to have to view, accept and be given special levels.

Fr. Chuck, you know nothing about me, so please do not presume to. You make me out to be closed-minded and childish, when I think I have presented myself to be the exact opposite of those things. I am not trying to force anyone to accept MY belief, I am presenting logical arguments. If that makes you or anyone else uncomfortable, or causes anyone to feel pressured into thinking the way that I do, the only explanation for that is that there is truth in what I am saying that others do not want to see or admit to.

If you believe that debating an issue with logical arguments, not personal religious beliefs, makes me 'guilty of forcing' something upon people, then you are sadly mistaken. There is nothing wrong with debating an issue that is important to me, so do not try to convince me that there is. It will not work.

Additionally, do not present YOUR religion as universal TRUTH which should apply to everyone, and do not reduce my life down to 'perverted sexual desires'- there is more to me, to my relationship, to my existence than sexual desires which, mind you, are not in the least way 'perverted'.

And I'm not asking for my 'sexual desires' to be 'forced upon others to view, accept, and be given special levels'. Why can no one see that homosexuality is no more about 'sexual desire' than heterosexuality? And why can no one see that gays asking to be able to congregate and celebrate who they are without harassment, to marry the people we love, and to be able to walk down the street with our partner without getting dirty looks and whispers isn't asking anyone for a 'special' favor- straight people can do it every day without getting sh*t for it, so why can't I?

[WVHiflyer]

I havent been around here for a day or two.... but yes, I do see that I am banging my head against a brick wall. I started another topic about homosexuality and asked for reasons from religious people as to why it's 'wrong' without referring to their religion since it doesn't apply to me. No one could really give a good reason, the reasons they gave were easily disputed, but they just couldn't open their minds to see it.

It's really frustrating, honestly. It's like someone is telling me the sky is green, and no matter how many times I SHOW them it's blue, they keep insisting otherwise.

We're having the same prob for the same reasons discussing evolution on another board...

[Credendovidis]

... It's like someone is telling me the sky is green, and no matter how many times I SHOW them it's blue, they keep insisting otherwise.

We're having the same prob for the same reasons discussing evolution on another board....

That's NOT the same or of the same validity !
One can provide objective supporting evidence for the sky being blue.
One can also provide objective supporting evidence for evolution to be the "motor" for all change to lifeforms.

However : for religion and for religious views there is no objective supported evidence : it is based on BELIEF and nothing else.

So religious based arguments on the issue at hand here (homo-sexuality) are totally meaningless, unless they are supported by any other objective supporting evidence, be that religious or non-religious.

As far as I know such support has never been posted on this or any other forum board - or anywhere else.

:rolleyes:

[shatteredsoul]

No matter what evidence you present there will always be the issue of interpretation. Just as you choose to narrowly interpret what people say, think or believe, the same can be said for what color the sky is. NO matter what objective evidence "proves the sky is blue", to someone who is color blind, the sky is green, that is what they see and that is therefore, what their interpretation is.. YOu think that everyone has religious based arguments when in fact, that is your limited perception. Yout own view points come from your own beliefs, which are not all based on fact. They are based on your information, your understanding of it, your personal experiences, your upbringing and how you interpret it to come to your own BELIEFS.

MOREOVER< not everyone has responded the same way to the subject of homosexuality. I responded to his other post with a very objective view about it and my own personal experience with it. I guess because there wasn't any dramatic verbal or insulting remarks, or it wasn't interesting enough to respond to.. HOWEVER, OTHER PEOPLE RESPONDED THAT WAY and as a result, the thread was closed. So don't say that you haven't seen them on any of the posts, when you may have chosen to over look them or simply not responded to them. OR it may have just been your own interpretation of what YOU UNDERSTAND or BELIEVE...

[Galveston1]

Same sex sex is genocide.

[Fr_Chuck]

Let me see you object to protesters, who in all my experience will end up being attacked and abused for standing up for their beliefs, And to be honest the Gay Pride ( not really something to be proud of in my beleif) events are a show to people, so why should not the other side be there to show people that there are others who do hold to beleifs and are not afraid of being called poliitically incorrect. And the Gay have tried to hard to force their beliefs on America though court systems without any real legal status except liberal judges who rubber stamp their agenda.

So yes, I as many do stand up for our rights to tell America that yes we can stand up against sexual deviance as becoming acceptable in America and yes we can show them that there is still a will to fight this from being forced upon America.

[N0help4u]

I agree protester's should have the right to protest, even to the extent of protesting protesters BUT there should be guidelines to follow equally by both sides. To name two...
No bashing or unruliness by either side
Keep a distance determined by the law

Bad examples of protesters are
Rev. Phelps -bashing and unruliness
Peta and anti war organizations -threatening to cage people in organizations they protest when the law is you are to keep a distance.

[milagros6670]

I attended our city's pride parade this past weekend. Behind the parade marched a scraggly gang of about 5 protestors (in comparison with the 200,000 who attended the parade and celebration, it was quite a small group). I found myself extremely angry with these people, walking around with their signs and megaphones, proclaiming that we are all sinners, perverts, undeserving of civil rights or any protections, condemning us to hell, angrily yelling out scripture verses... I wanted to try to talk to them, try to have some sort of conversation- but they were unapproachable, and made every effort to completely humiliate those who did approach them (yelling into megaphones about what sinners they were and how they were doomed to hell).

While I understand that homosexuality may be against the religious beliefs of some individuals, I fail to understand a number of things. Firstly, since when is it okay to believe that the religious morals of a group can be imposed upon those who don't share those same beliefs? If you believe that being gay is immoral, don't be gay. If I believe being gay is okay, and I am gay, then let me be. It's not as though the issue the issue at hand is something like MURDER- where if you think it's wrong, you don't murder, but I can because I don't see a problem with it. Gay people aren't hurting anyone. The protestors, I'm sure, would argue that we are. But I fail to see how working hard, contributing to my community, volunteering, going to school... doing EVERYTHING I would be doing whether I was straight or gay... how all of that is somehow soiled by who I go to sleep with at night. How all of a sudden, I'm a detriment to my society. Because I'm not producing children? In this already hiddeously overpopulated world... I don't think that's really an issue. What else could it be then? What makes me, and my partner, and my gay friends WORSE people than anyone else? Nothing. And if we're not hurting anyone, and all we want is to be regarded as people with rights equal to those that are afforded to anyone else, and then just to be left alone to live our lives... why is that something to go out and protest?

Secondly, what exactly do these people intend to accomplish by protesting on Pride weekend? Surely they can't believe that carrying signs and yelling at people is a sure-fire method to convert them, can they? Especially during a time when we're out celebrating who we are, proud of who we are, after existing in a society that has forced shame upon us for years and years... people who have lost their jobs, their families, their friends just be able to be who they are... people who have had to hide who they were out of fear of harassment, condemnation, abandonment... and now subjecting them to this kind of public ridicule for not adhering to religious morals that are not their own? It seems so petty, so strange, so unproductive. Their presence really came off as more of a self-gratifying one rather than any genuine 'mission' to save our 'lost souls'. They're just up on their self-righteous pedestals all day, degrading people who don't fit into their belief system. They can't imagine that they were really going to accomplish anything, can they? If their true intentions were to reach out to people, to change them, to convert them, to 'help' them, why take on such an aggressive approach? Why carry signs that put down and degrade the people they're trying to reach? Why humiliate people publically with a megaphone, with nasty signs, with ignorant misuse of scripture? It just really boggles my mind.

Aren't Christians supposed to walk in the footsteps of their Christ? Would Jesus publically berate someone who he felt needed guidance/help/salvation? And honestly, in a world as crazy and screwed up and hate-filled as we live in today, how can you condemn someone for loving someone else? It just seems so illogical. As a former Christian, it really just blows my mind the way that some people behave.

I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?

Unfoirtunately cristians don't understand the words of the bible I do believe the bible says judge unto others as you would have them judge unto you... I have always believed we should live our lives for us not for anyone else because god is who shall judge us in the end...
I can honestly say I know what your talking about I've been there not only for being with the women I love most in the world but also because I date men of different races when I do date them and my family thinks that god is testing them with my behavior... dude I say be with who you want to love is hard enough to find with out there being resctrictions on what gender or race the person you love has to be man live for you and your beliefs and forget anybody who thinks its wrong

[michealb]

How do all you christian know that being gay isn't allow now? Like how you all can eat pork. As far as I know the only place where it mentions gay being a sin was in Leviticas which almost none of the rules of Leviticas are followed now. Why do you get to pick?

[N0help4u]

From Romans 1 New Testament, BUT you are right in the sense that many Christians do pick. The Bible also says adultery and fornication, gluttony and a whole lot of other things are sin as well and then you have overfed, overweight adulterers pointing others sins out.

[WVHiflyer]

...And the Gay have tried to hard to force thier beliefs on America though court systems without any real legal status except liberal judges who rubber stamp thier agenda.

The only 'agenda' gays want is to be aforded the same rights given to every other minority group. It's not a matter of so-called 'liberal' judges, but ones that recognize the law and Constitutional rights.


.

[erin7799]

I may make people upset by saying this, but I am going to say it anyway. Call me narrow minded, whatever... I try to see all sides and I am certainly not trying to offend or hurt feelings, but... Why do you have to have a GAY PRIDE PARADE? I don't get a HETEROSEXUAL PRIDE PARADE. Why are you making a big to-do and shoving it in everyone's face? If you want to live your life in peace then do so. You can certainly be proud of who you are and what you're doing without the big "show". You want to be looked upon as being normal. Well normal isn't parading around the city telling everyone you're gay. Why do you feel the need to wave colorful flags and talk about your sexual orientation? Why can't I be proud of being straight? Or white? Or brown eyed? Because it makes me a racist. I can't be proud of being straight because that's discriminating. I in no way condone the behavior of the people with megaphones screaming you're going to hell. I am a christian and I may not care for what you do but I am not going to be standing in your place in front of God on judgement day, you are. It's not for me to say you're going to hell because we don't know that. What happens in the end is between you and God. Nor do I condone Gay Pride Parades. I don't see the point in it. When you do those things it's like you're screaming for attention. Good and Bad. It's like when a dude has 50 tattoos, dyes his hair flaming red, wears black eyeliner and paints his nails black. He'd get angry if people would look at him. Isn't he doing it for the attention knowing that people are going to give it to him good or bad? Anyway, aside from all of that, the way they went about it was all wrong. Yelling, carrying signs... they have obviously been misled. You are right. You don't help others that way. You reach out to them and tell them what you know. Talk to them about their lives and what they are going through. Invite them to church. You may not like what they do or think that it's OK to live the homosexual lifestyle but you never close the door on them. God works in mysterious ways.

[WVHiflyer]

erin7799 - I'm not gay but I try to understand their position. If your avatar is a current pic, you look too young to remember the civil rights marches of the 60s. That's what the gay pride marches are. They just want the same civil rights afforded everyone else, but since there are so many who deem them sinners or just disgusting, they have problems with everyday legal situations: denial of recognition of committed partnership (rights married folks get as w/ taxes and parental rights and end of life rights) not to mention the hate crimes.

Protest marches are what they really are.


-

[Wondergirl]

During the past even just five years, this country has come a long way in acceptance of homosexuality. Since there were only five protesters at the parade, doesn't that help you feel a little smug, in a good way of course, that the tide is turning and that this society is accepting gays and lesbians? It took forever for women to get the vote and to be considered equal, and for blacks to be accepted as real people and also be equal--and we're still not quite there yet regarding those two groups.

Please be the Christian-type of person the Christians aren't being. The Bible calls that "heaping coals of fire on their heads."

[Credendovidis]

I don't get a HETEROSEXUAL PRIDE PARADE.

If you like that idea, why not organize one? Feel free ! But does the fact that you are too lethargic to organize your parade means that others should not organize their parade? WHY ?

Why are you making a big to-do and shoving it in everyones face?

Why do you react so violent on that? You do not have to attend or participate, if you don't want! Where is your tolerance?

If you want to live your life in peace then do so.

They do precisely that. But it is you who protests against that...

... Well normal isn't parading around the city telling everyone you're gay.

On WHAT do you base that ?

Why do you feel the need to wave colorful flags and talk about your sexual orientation?

WHY NOT ? What is YOUR problem with them doing so?

Why can't I be proud of being straight?

Good question ! And why is that than?

I can't be proud of being straight because that's discriminating.

In that analogy Macy's parade is discriminating because it's based on Christian's Christmas. What a nonsense !

...but I am not going to be standing in your place in front of God on judgement day, you are.

Besides that nobody asks you to do so... you BELIEVE there will be a Judgment Day. But will there ?

Nor do I condone Gay Pride Parades. I don't see the point in it.

Nobody suggests or claims that YOU see any point in it. But some people do, as otherwise they would not organize these parades. Who do you think you are to deny them that?

God works in mysterious ways.

And he/she/it does not seem to involve you in it, I note...

Note : I am hetero AND tolerant!!

:rolleyes:

·

[ChihuahuaMomma]

Great points, Creden!

[erin7799]

People can go back and forth about this for the rest of their lives and the subject will never be settled because one is always going to think the other is wrong. No matter how I feel or what I believe nothing that I DO classifies me as being intolerant. I have to tolerate it everyday. I don't hate people who are gay. I just don't agree with the lifestyle choice. Is that OK? Why does that make me intolerant? What makes you right about wanting to have an entire parade/weekend/week dedicated to the fact that you choose to sleep with a member of the same sex? Ever since having my kids I have such a hard time knowing that my 8 yr old has lost his innocence. Why in school at 7 were they teaching him about homosexuality? I didn't want him to learn about sex at all at that age! They certainly never asked me if it was OK. And why when a bunch of kids got into trouble at school for calling someone "gay" did I have this huge discussion with him about how that was wrong and why it was wrong, if I am so "intolerant"? I would've just let it go if I didn't care. You feel one way and you will always be right. Because I believe in God and in the Bible I will always be wrong. Even though I have gay friends and people in my family who are gay I love them. If my son would come to me and tell me he's gay I would have a hard time with it but I'd never stop loving him or stop being there for him. The arguing about who is wrong and right is a neverending battle.

[Credendovidis]

No matter how I feel or what I believe nothing that I DO classifies me as being intolerant.

If you would concentrate on what YOU yourself can do better, and leave your opinion on what others are and do to them, I doubt if your current classification will stand the ravages of time.

You suggest there is nothing you can do to change people's views of you.
In reality it is only up to you : your actions make others form an opinion of you.
And presently neither your actions nor people's opinion of you is one of great tolerance...

:rolleyes:

·

[erin7799]

This is the first time EVER that I have opened up about how I feel about it. What is it that I DO that makes me intolerant? That's my question. I DO nothing. I let people do what they do and be who they are. We aren't all the same. I know this. I do not stand in their way. You're saying it's because of how I feel that I am intolerant. They don't want us to ignore it if they make it such a public display. Nothing at all that I DO would make anyone look at me and say "wow... she breeds intolerance". Nothing. I just stand by and let everyone do what they do and never say a word. I don't join in with people rioting. I don't make faces, yell slurs or any of that. It's funny because no matter how I feel about it I can voice my opinion on how I feel about it but I would never treat anyone differently because of who they choose to sleep with. "DO UNTO OTHERS..." I am not going to treat them any differently than I expect to be treated. How I treat you when we're standing in line at the grocery store has nothing to do with who you sleep with. It has everything to do with how you treat me. So to say that I am not tolerant is off. I am tolerant. I lived in Miami. I have lived in a gay community. That teaches you tolerance. I love people but I don't always care for what they do. I remember being so upset because many times it was like they were frowning upon the fact that I wasn't gay. If you were hetero you were abnormal. But I love people for who they are as people. I have no problem with Craig and Craig if they're sleeping together as long they respect me I respect them. I don't shove my tongue down my boyfriends throat in public and I don't expect Craig and Craig to swap spit in front of me either. There's a time and place for things. There's a difference between accepting something and tolerating it.

[ordinaryguy]

margog the issue is that you will not open your mind to some truth, you want it your way because you want your way period, And no homosexuality can not be interpreted many ways it is plain that it is wrong, the trouble is that you don't want to admit that you can be wrong, and that unless your way is "right" everyone else has to change their way of thinking and in the end you want to force everyone to accept your belief. In fact you are more guilty of forcing than those you are talking about

Chuck... apparently you think these words of Jesus apply more to Margog than to you. Personally, I think it's the other way around.

1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Matthew 7:1-5