[Skell]

Really? Where?

They are being prevented fom carrying guns. It's the fact that they DON'T have guns that make crimes like this possible. If the states allowed citizens to carry, and citizens were actually carrying, do you think that the shooter would have been able to kill 8 people without eing taken out first?

Can you name one case of a mass shooting where the citizenry was armed?

But that argument doesn't really hold up because in countries with gun laws and no gun culture (unlike in the US) there are NO mass shootings. There is no need for citizens to be armed in order to take out a mass shooter. Because mass shooters don't exist. Prevention is better than cure Elliot.

I can name a case right off the top of my head where an armed citizen stopped a mass shooting from becoming MUCH WORSE... the Salt Lake City shooting, where an off-duty cop took out the shooter before he could kill large numbers.

What an exceptionally brave man. I notice though that he was a policeman. He was trained! He takes down guys like this for a living. He wasn't just a citizen out shopping. And again, id much rather be in a situation where I didn't need his intervention. A place where due to gun control laws mass shootings no longer exist. His actions were brave but surely Elliot you'd prefer him not to have had to be brave in the first place?

You ought to learn quick-draw and tactical shooting, then. Then you won't have to worry about your gun still being in your belt when it ought to be in your hand. And a bit of hand-to-hand combat training might help to... a self-defense move might give you that extra second you need to draw and fire. A well-rounded self-defense plan or armed and unarmed training.

I don't need to. I'm not in danger of being shot when I go shopping or to work. I'm not even in danger of being mugged or knifed. It just doesn't happen I'm glad to say.

Don't take this the wrong way. But I think I have learnt now that I am probably out of line by calling for gun laws in the US. Im living in a completely different culture down here. We really don't need them. And I know Elliot you will spit crime statistics at me to try and convince me otherwise but the fact of the matter is, I live here, and I know for a fact that we citizens are safer without guns.

The same goes for you. You live there in the US. And you and most others tell me that you need guns. You need it for safety and you need it in case the government needs pulling into line. Ill take your word for it. I find it astonishing none the less but perhaps you guys just can't see a safer world without guns and perhaps the reality of it all is that sadly you guys really do need a gun to be safe!

[ETWolverine]

But that argument doesn't really hold up because in countries with gun laws and no gun culture (unlike in the US) there are NO mass shootings. There is no need for citizens to be armed in order to take out a mass shooter. Because mass shooters don't exist. Prevention is better than cure Elliot.

Nope. No mass shootings. Just knifings, people being killed with other implements of destruction like sticks, stones, tools, etc. Murder is through the roof, and assault is through the roof. But no shootings. Good for you.

When a guy comes at me with a knife, I'd rather have a gun to defend myself, wouldn't you?

What an exceptionally brave man.

No... what's exceptional is not his bravery, but rather the fact that he had the tools to do what needed to be done. Granted he was very brave, but there's no lack of bravery in the USA. But most Americans aren't ARMED, and even if they were brave, they ouldn't have done anything to stop this shooter.

I notice though that he was a policeman. He was trained! He takes down guys like this for a living. He wasn't just a citizen out shopping.

Actually, he WAS just a citizen out shopping. He was off duty, and he was not in the state that he operates as a police officer. But he was ARMED and that made all the difference.

And again, id much rather be in a situation where I didn't need his intervention.

Who wouldn't? I'd much rather have world peace. But it's not realistic.

A place where due to gun control laws mass shootings no longer exist.

Again, not very realistic. There is no place (and never will be) where there are gun laws and no shootings. Gun laws don't prevent shootings, they only prevent shooting back at the bad guy. France, which has some of the toughest gun control laws also is undergoing some major violence right now... it seems that people looking to make trouble either don't need guns (molotov cocktails seem to be fairly prevalent) or are able to find them despite the gun laws.

His actions were brave but surely Elliot you'd prefer him not to have had to be brave in the first place?

Yes. But I live in reality, not fantasy. And in reality, violence exists. Gun laws don't stop violence. Gun laws don't prevent shootings.

I don't need to. I'm not in danger of being shot when I go shopping or to work. I'm not even in danger of being mugged or knifed. It just doesn't happen I'm glad to say.

Ahhhhh... the "it can't happen to me" argument.

Well, I'm glad that you aren't one of the 141,000 people in Australia that were assaulted, the 302 that were murdered, the 59 that were shot to death, or the 16,000 that were raped last year. They probably thought it couldn't happen to them either. But I'm glad you're safe.

Don't take this the wrong way. But I think I have learnt now that I am probably out of line by calling for gun laws in the US. Im living in a completely different culture down here. We really don't need them. And I know Elliot you will spit crime statistics at me to try and convince me otherwise but the fact of the matter is, I live here, and I know for a fact that we citizens are safer without guns.

As I said, I'm sure the victims of the crimes I mentioned above felt safe too, until they became victims. I wonder how many of them wish they had a gun to defend themselves when the cime was happening.

The same goes for you. You live there in the US. And you and most others tell me that you need guns. You need it for safety and you need it in case the government needs pulling into line. Ill take your word for it. I find it astonishing none the less but perhaps you guys just can't see a safer world without guns and perhaps the reality of it all is that sadly you guys really do need a gun to be safe!

Perhaps. Or perhaps I just feel that any right that is not continually excersized will eventually be taken away. In any case, I can't understand a society where people would willingly make themselves victims who are subject to the whims of people who don't follow the laws and committ crimes.

To each his own.

Elliot