[mountain_man]

I think another big reason why some people dont believe is that they dont want to. Evolution, as ridiculous as it is, is an alternitive to those who dont want to believe in a God in whom they have to be accountable to. In Our human nature we all want to run our own lives and do what ever we want without being accountable to anyone. The fear for most non believers is that they think if i believe in God then i am accountable to him, i have to give my life to him, i have to follow his comandments and turn away from sin. Most people are not ready to give up control of their lives like that so they choose to not believe in a God who is rightious and holds them accountable. So for someone who feels that way evolution is great because it eliminates a higher power, hell, judegment day etc. So they think if i dont believe, then i will not be subject to the consequeses however they fail to realise that whether you choose to believe or not the reality still remains and as Jesus said one day every knee shall bow and ever tongue shall confess that he is lord.

You get a bad rap and get nailed a lot in other boards but you are spot on and I wholly support everything you are saying. Praise the Lord!

[beatlejuice]

Thank you! The Truth is sometimes offensive to people and can create controversy but that should not stop us from speaking it!

[Synnen]

I find this another interesting conversation.

I was raised in a Christian family. I turned away from Christianity because of the hypocritical nature of the vast majority of the people I knew that professed to be Christian.

I spent 3 years researching every religion I could find information on.

This is not to say that ALL Christians are bad, or are hypocritical--but how could I possibly want to associate myself with people who seemed to lie to themselves about how "good" and "moral" they were/are?

I have met, face-to-face, 10 good Christians in my life. I am not including the people on this board, because I really don't know what you do with your lives away from here--and actions speak so much more plainly than words, don't you think? Those 10 great Christians were givers to their community, held no grudges, didn't preach--they didn't have to, because they LIVED according to Christ--went to church, had good morals, but forgave those who were not so lucky to have been taught those morals--they gave of themselves, of their hearts, of their time, of their pocketbook. When they said they'd pray for someone, they didn't make it sound as if it were a favor, or as if it were condescending.

I think the biggest problem that "non-believers" have with Christians is that they are not humble, they don't admit that they are human, and make mistakes--their view on so many things is that they are superior to others, that their worldview is the only one that can POSSIBLY be a good one. Yet--what of slavery, which was justified by the Bible? What of the subjugation of women (mostly due to that jerk St. Paul, the world's biggest woman-hater)? What of the STILL enduring idea that gays and lesbians are "less", and from what I understand that whole idea is taken from ONE passage of the Bible, about Sodom and Gamorrah! Yet... that same story tells of the incest between Lot and his daughters--why is being gay bad, and being incestuous not, then? The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the witch hunts in Europe, the killing of the natives for their gold by the missionaries to the New World, the pedophilia so often in the news by the Catholic Church--and yet you wonder why people doubt the words of Christians?

I can't speak for anyone else--but I think Christianity has some GREAT ideas. But as a religion, those ideas are enforced by whoever interpets them in a particular way to get their political or selfish ideas across, and how can I possible trust a god that allows His followers to pervert His words? How could I possibly believe that no matter how many sins you commit, how much evil you do--if you ask for forgiveness on your deathbed, you will not have to pay for those sins?

[jillianleab]

I'd like to point out, with regards to accountability, that no, I don't believe I am accountable to a supreme being. I am accountable only to myself and those I care about, which means if I do something wrong, I have to answer to ME. I can't ask for forgiveness from god, I have to find it in myself. I have to seek it from others. If I wrong you, and you REFUSE to forgive me, I have to live each day knowing that because of my actions, you have a poor opinion of me. I have to find it in myself to look in the mirror each day, and find a way to carry on with my life and "right" my "wrong". If I wrong someone, I don't simply shrug it off and say, "Ah well, who cares if I upset that guy!" I have a conscience, and feel remorse. Mine, however, can only be relieved by myself and the one I did wrong.

[mountain_man]

I'd like to point out, with regards to accountability, that no, I don't believe I am accountable to a supreme being. I am accountable only to myself and those I care about, which means if I do something wrong, I have to answer to ME. I can't ask for forgiveness from god, I have to find it in myself. I have to seek it from others. If I wrong you, and you REFUSE to forgive me, I have to live each day knowing that because of my actions, you have a poor opinion of me. I have to find it in myself to look in the mirror each day, and find a way to carry on with my life and "right" my "wrong". If I wrong someone, I don't simply shrug it off and say, "Ah well, who cares if I upset that guy!" I have a conscience, and feel remorse. Mine, however, can only be relieved by myself and the one I did wrong.

I may be out of line and defensive regarding your responses but are you implying by your highlighted statement that we (Christians) don't care if we wrong someone because we have God? Help me understand.

[NeedKarma]

I may be out of line and defensive regarding your responses but are you implying by your highlighted statement that we (Christians) don't care if we wrong someone because we have God? Help me understand.

Actually I think it's the other way around - the part you highlighted is the way that most christians feel that atheists live their lives i.e. no accountability.

[mountain_man]

Actually I think it's the other way around - the part you highlighted is the way that most christians feel that atheists live their lives i.e. no accountability.

I wouldn't say athesist have no accountability or don't take accountability but they don't recognize accountability to their Creator.

[beatlejuice]

Christian or Not, we are all Human and even the Bible points out that we are born in sin. The Bible also points out that even if we receive Christ and become children of God we are still going to sin because we are not perfect, we are still Human. So I think that expecting Christians to be perfect is an extremely unrealistic expectation. We are called to live a rightious life and do good but the bible clearly states that we are still sinners, we will still fall into temptation but because of grace through Christ we are blameless before God. So in a sense we are hypocrites because we don't always practice what we preach but we are still called to preach the gospel regardless. So for someone expect perfection from christians is very very unrealistic and one should not look to Christians but only to Christ because he is the only one who is perfect and the only one who will never disappoint you. So for people who say they don't want to be christians because Christians are not a good example, I understand where you are coming from but it is not a good excuse because the bible never said once you are a Christian you become perfect and without sin. Therefore don't let look to an imperfect human being but look to God and see that He is good.

[NeedKarma]

I wouldn't say athesist have no accountability or don't take accountability but they don't recognize accountability to their Creator.

I wasn't pointing you out, it's others. Anyway it's best to let jillianleab answer the question since your question was directed at her. :)

[mountain_man]

I wasn't pointing you out, it's others. Anyway it's best to let jillianleab answer the question since your question was directed at her. :)

Gotcha, Thanks :D

[jillianleab]

NK has it correct, but I can see how my statement was unclear. Sorry about that.

Let me try to make it a little clearer. If you get drunk, drive a car, hit another car, and kill the driver, you feel terrible, right? Of course you do. So you apologize to the family, and they refuse to accept your apology. You still feel terrible. As a result of this accident, you turn over a new leaf and "find" god; you repent in ways your religion sees fit, you confess your sins and express your remorse. Because of that, because you've done what you think you must do to get god to forgive you, you think you will be on your way to heaven when you die. This is not to say you still don't feel bad about what you did, but you are at least comforted because god has forgiven you. Now put me in that situation, and leave the "finding" god part out. If that family won't forgive me, how can I ever feel good about myself again? So my point is not to imply Christians don't care if they do wrong, only that by having the sense that god has forgiven you for your sins and wrongdoings you have some comfort; you will eventually be in heaven. It might help you move past the incident more that I am able to, because I would continue to feel no comfort until the family forgives me.

Frequently Christians think atheists do something wrong and since they aren't accountable to god they get over it faster. For me, personally, this isn't true. As I said, I have to answer to myself; and it's hard to forgive yourself for something you did wrong when the person you wronged will not forgive you.

I hope this made my point a little clearer, but I will certainly address and further questions.

[Synnen]

I think you misunderstand.

I don't expect Christians to be perfect. I do, however, expect them to live by their own rules, and to be able to be a good Christian BEFORE they try to recruit others.

For example... imagine a woman who goes to church every Sunday, volunteers her time and energy at the food shelf and making quilts for the homeless. Yet, at work, she constantly puts others down, and badmouths them. She finds out little details about co-workers and spins them in the worst light possible. She is horrified by the woman pregnant out of wedlock, by the woman whose son is being sent to military school because she's not sure what else to do, since the kid's dad won't take responsibility for him, by people who go to parties on Saturday night and not to church on Sunday morning. She brags about her volunteer work, and about what a difference she makes in the lives of others, and belittles the people who are too busy with family and work to be able to volunteer more than $10 a month to charity.

Instead of rejoicing that there will be a wonderful new baby, helping the woman whose son is in trouble by giving her contact information for free counseling services, and keeping her mouth shut about bad news and spreading the good instead. Whenever someone has a problem, her ONLY advice is to turn to Christ. Her idea of loving her neighbor as herself has to do with helping those she volunteers to help, at specific times and places, rather than really helping her neighbor--buying baby clothes at garage sales for the pregnant woman, offering to babysit for the couple who are so crazy with kids that their marriage is floundering, not judging people ONLY by what she hears about them.

THAT kind of Christian is the kind I generally run into. Not exactly that, but the same idea. Smug in her religion, overly proud of her deeds, and spreading the worst of the news of others around her, instead of rejoicing with them or helping to support them. To me, being a good PERSON means helping anyone you know needs help. Is that not what the good Samitan did?

Believe me... I know that not all Christians are like that. And I know that good people are good people everywhere, and that we don't always see the good side of a person. But the people that preach Christ without actually reflecting his works are the ones I seem to hear shouting his words the loudest. Unfortunately, the ones who quietly live their lives for Christ just don't get the same fanfare and attention--but are better appreciated by those who are near them.

[mountain_man]

NK has it correct, but I can see how my statement was unclear. Sorry about that.

Let me try to make it a little clearer. If you get drunk, drive a car, hit another car, and kill the driver, you feel terrible, right? Of course you do. So you apologize to the family, and they refuse to accept your apology. You still feel terrible. As a result of this accident, you turn over a new leaf and "find" god; you repent in ways your religion sees fit, you confess your sins and express your remorse. Because of that, because you've done what you think you must do to get god to forgive you, you think you will be on your way to heaven when you die. This is not to say you still don't feel bad about what you did, but you are at least comforted because god has forgiven you. Now put me in that situation, and leave the "finding" god part out. If that family won't forgive me, how can I ever feel good about myself again? So my point is not to imply Christians don't care if they do wrong, only that by having the sense that god has forgiven you for your sins and wrongdoings you have some comfort; you will eventually be in heaven. It might help you move past the incident more that I am able to, because I would continue to feel no comfort until the family forgives me.

Frequently Christians think atheists do something wrong and since they aren't accountable to god they get over it faster. For me, personally, this isn't true. As I said, I have to answer to myself; and it's hard to forgive yourself for something you did wrong when the person you wronged will not forgive you.

I hope this made my point a little clearer, but I will certainly address and further questions.

It certainly has thanks for responding. You do make a lot of sense and those scenarios would be entirely too difficult. Don't you find it impossible to deal with worry, loss, grief, anger, etc when you have to shoulder all the burden? I would say I am blessed to be able to allow my God to shoulder some of that burden for me.

[jillianleab]

It certainly has thanks for responding. You do make a lot of sense and those scenarios would be entirely too difficult. Don't you find it impossible to deal with worry, loss, grief, anger, etc when you have to shoulder all the burden? I would say I am blessed to be able to allow my God to shoulder some of that burden for me.

I think you just "got it"! It's very hard to deal with the burden of my wrongdoings - that's what keeps me on the straight and narrow, so to speak. Since I know I have to shoulder ALL the burden, I try to make decisions that won't result in carrying burden. I think it makes me a better person, because I consider the effects my actions will have on me and my future. Going to my previous example of drunk driving - a few years ago I drove home drunk; REALLY drunk. So drunk, I threw up in the car all over myself. I was in no shape to drive, but I did it anyway. I was lucky and didn't hit anyone or anything (notice I didn't say I was lucky and didn't get caught), but the next morning when I woke up and realized how incredibly STUPID and IRRESPONSIBLE I was, and the damage I COULD have done - I broke down and sobbed. I couldn't stop. I have not driven a car after drinking since that say, and I never will. I've made the decision that I will NOT have to shoulder the burden of injuring someone or myself as a result of stupidity, because it would be too much to bear.

[mountain_man]

I find this another interesting conversation.

I was raised in a Christian family. I turned away from Christianity because of the hypocritical nature of the vast majority of the people I knew that professed to be Christian.

I spent 3 years researching every religion I could find information on.

This is not to say that ALL Christians are bad, or are hypocritical--but how could I possibly want to associate myself with people who seemed to lie to themselves about how "good" and "moral" they were/are?

I have met, face-to-face, 10 good Christians in my life. I am not including the people on this board, because I really don't know what you do with your lives away from here--and actions speak so much more plainly than words, don't you think? Those 10 great Christians were givers to their community, held no grudges, didn't preach--they didn't have to, because they LIVED according to Christ--went to church, had good morals, but forgave those who were not so lucky to have been taught those morals--they gave of themselves, of their hearts, of their time, of their pocketbook. When they said they'd pray for someone, they didn't make it sound as if it were a favor, or as if it were condescending.

I think the biggest problem that "non-believers" have with Christians is that they are not humble, they don't admit that they are human, and make mistakes--their view on so many things is that they are superior to others, that their worldview is the only one that can POSSIBLY be a good one. Yet--what of slavery, which was justified by the Bible? What of the subjugation of women (mostly due to that jerk St. Paul, the world's biggest woman-hater)? What of the STILL enduring idea that gays and lesbians are "less", and from what I understand that whole idea is taken from ONE passage of the Bible, about Sodom and Gamorrah! Yet...that same story tells of the incest between Lot and his daughters--why is being gay bad, and being incestuous not, then? The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the witch hunts in Europe, the killing of the natives for their gold by the missionaries to the New World, the pedophilia so often in the news by the Catholic Church--and yet you wonder why people doubt the words of Christians?

I can't speak for anyone else--but I think Christianity has some GREAT ideas. But as a religion, those ideas are enforced by whoever interpets them in a particular way to get their political or selfish ideas across, and how can I possible trust a god that allows His followers to pervert His words? How could I possibly believe that no matter how many sins you commit, how much evil you do--if you ask for forgiveness on your deathbed, you will not have to pay for those sins?

I agree we are hypocrites and sinners. We need to be more humble as a whole and be servants like Jesus instructed us to be. It is not our place to judge.

My response to some of your other questions; God will deal with the individuals that pervert the word and take advantage of people that look up to them. We may be forgiven of our sins because of Jesus' death but we will answer to God in heaven about our sins and who is to say how He will deal with those sins in the end. If you seek forgiveness from God on your deathbed I believe you will escape eternal death but you will still be accountable for your sins.

[savedsinner7]

Everyone has a view of how a Christian should act. Even Christians. We cannot live up to the expectations because we are human. This is where the Grace of Jesus steps in, to make up the difference in all that we lack. Unfortunately, too many of us fail to rely on the Grace and try to do this in our own strength. This is where we fail the LORD.
2 Timothy 3:5
They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!

Christian or Not, we are all Human and even the Bible points out that we are born in sin. The Bible also points out that even if we recieve Christ and become children of God we are still going to sin because we are not perfect, we are still Human. So i think that expecting Christians to be perfect is an extremely unrealistic expectation. We are called to live a rightious life and do good but the bible clearly states that we are still sinners, we will still fall into temptation but because of grace through Christ we are blameless before God. So in a sense we are hypocrites because we dont always practice what we preach but we are still called to preach the gospel regardless. So for someone expect perfection from christians is very very unrealistic and one should not look to Christians but only to Christ because he is the only one who is perfect and the only one who will never disappoint you. So for people who say they dont want to be christians because Christians are not a good example, i understand where you are coming from but it is not a good excuse because the bible never said once you are a Christian you become perfect and without sin. therefore dont let look to an imperfect human being but look to God and see that He is good.

[inthebox]

I aappreciate the input from those who are not stated Christians.

Honestly, I would never have been able to see thing from your point of view. This helps me understand.

There is the parable of the man who's million or so dollar debt is forgiven by Jesus, this same man goes to another man who owes him a much smaller amount and demands repayment. Jesus points this out as wrong.

Because, we believers believe God loves us and forgives us, we are expected to act in a likewise manner to all others. Of course no human is perfect.

But people are right to call out believer's not acting like Christ. But it does not change who God is and what he has done for us.





Grace and Peace

[beatlejuice]

I think you misunderstand.

I don't expect Christians to be perfect. I do, however, expect them to live by their own rules, and to be able to be a good Christian BEFORE they try to recruit others.

For example...imagine a woman who goes to church every Sunday, volunteers her time and energy at the food shelf and making quilts for the homeless. Yet, at work, she constantly puts others down, and badmouths them. She finds out little details about co-workers and spins them in the worst light possible. She is horrified by the woman pregnant out of wedlock, by the woman whose son is being sent to military school because she's not sure what else to do, since the kid's dad won't take responsibility for him, by people who go to parties on Saturday night and not to church on Sunday morning. She brags about her volunteer work, and about what a difference she makes in the lives of others, and belittles the people who are too busy with family and work to be able to volunteer more than $10 a month to charity.

Instead of rejoicing that there will be a wonderful new baby, helping the woman whose son is in trouble by giving her contact information for free counseling services, and keeping her mouth shut about bad news and spreading the good instead. Whenever someone has a problem, her ONLY advice is to turn to Christ. Her idea of loving her neighbor as herself has to do with helping those she volunteers to help, at specific times and places, rather than really helping her neighbor--buying baby clothes at garage sales for the pregnant woman, offering to babysit for the couple who are so crazy with kids that their marriage is floundering, not judging people ONLY by what she hears about them.

THAT kind of Christian is the kind I generally run into. Not exactly that, but the same idea. Smug in her religion, overly proud of her deeds, and spreading the worst of the news of others around her, instead of rejoicing with them or helping to support them. To me, being a good PERSON means helping anyone you know needs help. Is that not what the good Samitan did?

Believe me...I know that not all Christians are like that. And I know that good people are good people everywhere, and that we don't always see the good side of a person. But the people that preach Christ without actually reflecting his works are the ones I seem to hear shouting his words the loudest. Unfortunately, the ones who quietly live their lives for Christ just don't get the same fanfare and attention--but are better appreciated by those who are near them.

I am sorry that those are the kind of Christians you have encountered. The Bible does not indorse in anyway people who behave self rightiously and are judjemental. Those type of people remind me of the pharosies who were very religious, self rightious and overly proud. Jesus actually made it clear that he did like their actions. After all Jesus dined with tax collecters, walked with former prostututes, healed the sick on the holy sabath, all these things that pharocies rebuked Jesus for because it against the "religious" practices. What Jesus was trying to show is that it is not about religious works but it is about grace. Jesus never judged even prostitutes, when they were about to stone her Jesus said let he has no sin cast the first stone. Then he turned to the woman and said your sins have been forgiven, now go and sin no more. So the message of the bible is about forgiveness, you come as you are to the throne of Grace and He is mercyful. At our church we have x convicts, ex drug adicts ex muderes you name it. We do not act like we are all perfect people with perfect back grounds. We have single mothers who have never been married and they are not made feel any different than anyone else and no one is made to feel condemned. That does not mean we think sin I is right but Jesus said come as you are.

[beatlejuice]

However there are other burdens that may not be self inficted and are beyond your control.

[mountain_man]

Beatle, excellent response. I come from the same kind of church you do and welcome everyone. Synnen, I am too sorry you have had bad interactions with self-righteous Christians, it makes me ashamed to be included in that type of model so to speak. God bless