[Wondergirl]

Is it possible that it is the purpose of the law which has changed?

Yes.

In OT times, the purpose of the law was to instruct man on how to become acceptable to God. That plainly failed, so we are now, as always, accepted by God on the basis of faith.

Now the Old Testament is our SOS = Show's Oyour Sin, whereas the New Testament, the new SOS, Show's Oyour Salvation.

[jakester]

Tess and Action Jackson - I've been observing your sparring match and what's clear to me is that both of you are making a very important and subtle point that the other is not seeing.

Tess - I see that your point is that as a believer that you are not obligated to keep the Mosaic Covenant, where things such as the following were required:

1) offering sacrifices for sin
2) abstaining from eating pork
3) observing the Sabbath

I understand you to be saying that you are not "under" this law. Meaning that you are not obligated to keep this Covenant and all of its vast ordinances, since Christ was the embodiment of this law and we are to follow him instead. In which case, I agree with you if that is what you are saying.

Action, I understand you to be saying that to say that I am not "under the law" is akin to saying that I am not under its authority or responsible for obeying it since "I have Jesus." On the one hand, you agree that the law does not bring life, Jesus does, but on the other hand, the law is also the embodiment of God's moral vision for his people. I wonder if I have you correctly there? I hope so.

I think I can see where you are both coming from.

Tess, I would say that even though as a Gentile, I am not under the Mosaic Covenant, I believe it is my duty to follow the embodiment of God's moral vision that is seen in that Covenant. I live by faith in Christ but Jesus and the Apostles also taught that faith without works is dead. In other words, a life of faith without the commitment of doing good is really shallow and empty. I mean, you strive to do good in your life, right? You are committed to living a life of righteousness and not evil because deep down you know it is a good response to God and required for true and genuine repentance. Yes, we’ll mess up because we are sinners but we pursue righteousness in spite of the fact that we fail. Consider the following:

1) He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.

The message of Jesus and the Apostles is that we who have named the name of Christ must also live a life that is in keeping with that faith. If I say I love God and hate my neighbor, how does God's love dwell in me? If I say I have faith and yet refuse to grant mercy to others, can I really be a child of God?

Now, some would say, well how many good works do you have to do? See that's not the point. No amount of good works done in the name of God will make me worthy of eternal life because I fall short of God's standard and because God has never made that kind of offer to me anyway, since he sent Jesus to be the offering for my sin. But, I need to persevere in doing good and striving for goodness because to be a disciple of Jesus means learning to adopt God's values and strive to be like him... obviously we will fall short but that is why we are told to "strive."

The allergy that I see you having Action is that to say that I am free from following the law amounts to lawlessness and ungodliness. I’m sure for some people, maybe they really mean that. But I also think that as a Gentile (I’m assuming you are) you are not required to abstain from pork or to stone your neighbor if he blasphemes God. But I think you would agree that to not follow God’s moral vision contained in the Law would be a terrible thing in the name of “faith” or Jesus.

Comments?

[NeedKarma]

Comments?

Just one small one: ActionJackson hasn't posted here since 2007. Didn't want you to feel slighted if he didn't answer. :)

[jakester]

Just one small one: ActionJackson hasn't posted here since 2007. Didn't want you to feel slighted if he didn't answer. :)

Yeah, OK, then... well, wherever he may be he's missing in Action here.

Thanks, Karma

[dwashbur]

Yeah, ok, then...well, wherever he may be he's missing in Action here.

*rimshot*

:D

[jlisenbe]

What do you folks think about the concept of Christ living his life in me, and therefore doing away with striving? Do we have to strive to bear fruit?

[Wondergirl]

What do you folks think about the concept of Christ living his life in me, and therefore doing away with striving? Do we have to strive to bear fruit?

What's your definition of "strive"?

[jakester]

What do you folks think about the concept of Christ living his life in me, and therefore doing away with striving? Do we have to strive to bear fruit?

jlisenbe - I think I understand what you are asking.

Yes, Jesus uses the language that if we abide in him, that we will bear much fruit; abide in me and I will abide in you... something like that is what he says.

I think that it is God who is at work in us and yet we are also told to abide in Christ and to persevere in doing good.

As I quoted from Romans, Paul uses the language of striving to do good... that was not my choice of words but his. To strive in the sense in which I think he means is to fight or struggle to do good. Implied in that is the idea that doing good will not come naturally to us. If Paul intended for us not to strive but to just let go and let God, why then does he admonish us to strive? That is why in a certain sense striving is different from just letting go and letting God. I'm not even sure that that statement is necessarily consistent with some of the New Testament because people define that statement in vastly different ways.

If letting go and letting God is akin to saying, "don't push up against the boundaries of your life but accept your situation in life and accept that God's ways are different from yours", then that makes sense. But if letting go and letting God is something like "empty yourself of all personal desires and amibition; you shouldn't feel sadness or be concerned for anything; just give everything to God and don't have any cares or worries", then I don't think that is helpful nor is it what Paul is trying to say. The Psalms are filled with people crying out to God in trials and tribulations.

The Christian life is not like what is portrayed in Star Wars. The jedis use the force and tell each other to use the force. I think that this idea has pervaded Christian thought and people buy into the idea that the force (the Spirit of God) will just live out your life through his power, without your personal will or freedom to make your own choices. I don't think that is what we are talking about in the bible. I think that the Spirit of God bears witness to the truth, illuminates our hearts to it, and convicts us of what the truth is and encourages us to pursue and follow it. He is our Helped in that regard. But I don't think we are passive agents who are to empty ourselves of all personal interest and desire and just allow the Spirit to do whatever he desires in us. I don't think that is the role the Spirit plays in the world or in the lives of believers. It can't be that Christian theology is the same as Star Wars.

[classyT]

Jake,

I believe the Christian is only under Grace. The apostle Paul taught the law is the ministry of death. We can't keep it. Never could.. never will. But Grace and truth came by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I DO understand what you are saying... ( I think). How do we live our lives as Christians? How does the world know we are Christians and how can we show Christ to the lost world if we live like the sinners? We want to live our Christian life in a practical way. Which is the only way the book of James makes sense. It isn't about salvation. ( and I might add, Peter and the others had a difficult time understanding Paul's writings concerning grace. ) Peter states this in his epistles. Peter would slip back into the law enough so that Paul had to confront him for it.

We are given the gift of righteousness when we accept the Lord Jesus as our savior. It is a GIFT. When we believe the Father looks at us as perfect in Christ, without spot, without one sin, we will behave accordingly. It is all about what we BELIEVE. AND should I mess up, I am still righteous before my Father in heaven. Not because of what I have done.. but because of what Christ already did. I am already perfect in Christ. Not always my actions but my standing. I have found when I walk in that mindset, knowledge, and truth, I am far less likely to sin. Keeping my eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of my faith. Seriously, THINK on it. We are perfect when God looks at us. I am RIGHTEOUS. We don't really believe it, or it would change every Christian. Who wants to go sin when they wake up in soaked in that awesome truth? I don't. Grace is our only hope for practical christian life. NOT the law. The law stirs my flesh up and makes me want to sin. And if everyone was honest they would admit the law does that for them as well. Romans tells us point blank that it does.

The only thing the law does for mankind is show us we are lost and without hope. That's IT! There is no power to help us live right in the law. ONLY in grace can we be what we should be.

I think that is what Tessy777 meant. Don't know for sure. :) She wasn't very good at expressing herself without all the "Dudes" and sarcastic comments. But she was darn cute.. don't you think? ;) she just needed a little class!

[dwashbur]

Excellent explanation! (I have to spread some love around before I can give you a green :confused:)

Jake,

I believe the Christian is only under Grace. The apostle Paul taught the law is the ministry of death. We can't keep it. Never could..never will. But Grace and truth came by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I DO understand what you are saying...( i think). How do we live our lives as Christians? How does the world know we are Christians and how can we show Christ to the lost world if we live like the sinners? We want to live our Christian life in a practical way. Which is the only way the book of James makes sense. It isn't about salvation. ( and i might add, Peter and the others had a difficult time understanding Paul's writings concerning grace. ) Peter states this in his epistles. Peter would slip back into the law enough so that Paul had to confront him for it.

We are given the gift of righteousness when we accept the Lord Jesus as our savior. It is a GIFT. When we believe the Father looks at us as perfect in Christ, without spot, without one sin, we will behave accordingly. It is all about what we BELIEVE. AND should i mess up, i am still righteous before my Father in heaven. Not because of what I have done..but because of what Christ already did. I am already perfect in Christ. Not always my actions but my standing. I have found when I walk in that mindset, knowledge, and truth, i am far less likely to sin. Keeping my eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of my faith. Seriously, THINK on it. We are perfect when God looks at us. I am RIGHTEOUS. We don't really believe it, or it would change every Christian. Who wants to go sin when they wake up in soaked in that awesome truth? I don't. Grace is our only hope for practical christian life. NOT the law. The law stirs my flesh up and makes me want to sin. And if everyone was honest they would admit the law does that for them as well. Romans tells us point blank that it does.

The only thing the law does for mankind is show us we are lost and without hope. That's IT! There is no power to help us live right in the law. ONLY in grace can we be what we should be.

I think that is what Tessy777 meant. don't know for sure. :) She wasn't very good at expressing herself without all the "Dudes" and sarcastic comments. but she was darn cute..don't ya think? ;) she just needed a little class!

[classyT]

Dave,

:)

[jakester]

Jake,

I believe the Christian is only under Grace. The apostle Paul taught the law is the ministry of death. We can't keep it. Never could..never will. But Grace and truth came by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I wholeheartedly agree, Tess. We definitely see eye to eye on this. I would never dispute that because I understand that in keeping the law, I would only prove myself to be a sinner so eternal life would have to come another way and that is through Christ.

I DO understand what you are saying...( i think). How do we live our lives as Christians? How does the world know we are Christians and how can we show Christ to the lost world if we live like the sinners? We want to live our Christian life in a practical way. Which is the only way the book of James makes sense. It isn't about salvation. ( and i might add, Peter and the others had a difficult time understanding Paul's writings concerning grace. ) Peter states this in his epistles. Peter would slip back into the law enough so that Paul had to confront him for it.

What you have mentioned above is the point that I think ActionJackson was trying to make and is the same point I am trying to make. Not only would I say that “we want to live our Christian life in a practical way” but I’d say that we “must” live our lives in a practical way if our declaration of faith would have any genuineness to it. Let me explain through an example that we all can relate to.

------ FYI, this is a completely fictitious scenario.

Imagine one day that you tell me about the gospel of Jesus Christ because you believe me to be an unbeliever. You explain to me that I am a rebel against God and that I deserve to be condemned for my sin. You further go on to explain to me that I must repent and turn from my lifestyle of rebellion and evil against God and become a disciple of Jesus and become his servant. In faith, I must see that the death he died was the death I deserved and that if I am willing to believe in Christ and follow him, that God is willing to forgive me and grant me forgiveness for my sins and eternal life. I say “ok, that sounds good to me; I believe.” And I go on my way.

Let’s say some years later, we meet again and you come to understand that in my life I have not changed much at all. My perspective about what is good and right is really no different. You knew me as someone who always wanted revenge when people wronged me and I am still that way. You knew me as someone who would often steal things and hustle people for money and after some conversation I tell you that I recently stole a Rolex watch from some old man from a nursing home and I joke about it. You also knew that I was married and how I often joked about how I loved the thrill of trying to meet young college girls while I was away on business trips for some extramarital activity. In fact, after talking for a few more minutes I detail how I am juggling two women and my wife knows nothing about it. As we part ways I mention to you that I am still active in the church and I even thank God for all of the blessings he has given to me.

End of scenario ----------------------

So, as you read the above scenario, Tess, do you question the genuineness of my faith? Does it really matter how I live my life or is it “all about what we BELIEVE?”

Now in light of what I have said, let’s read what James says: “now someone may argue, ‘Some people have faith; others have good deeds.’ But I say, ‘How can you show me your faith if you don't have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.’” What James is saying is that we demonstrate our faith by our good deeds. To say I have faith and yet no good deeds, my faith is empty…it’s dead. Faith and works go hand in hand because the good works that I do demonstrate that there is genuineness and sincerity to my faith…that my confession and belief is God is one with substance and not just mere words.

So the rub is this: are works bringing about my salvation? To which we would both agree, no! No amount of good deeds will bring about my salvation because I am a sinner. The very substance of me is sinful at my core and I am damnable without God’s mercy. But if repentance is truly repentance, the commitment of our hearts change and our minds and hearts are set on a different course where we learn and practice the virtues of goodness and godliness. Our hearts long to do the will of God, not continue on in the dictates of our own old man.

But what about when we fail morally? Ahh, yes that is the question. This is the issue Paul is addressing in Romans 6:

“I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.”

We are told to persevere in doing good because of our "human limitations." We once served sin but now we are told to serve righteousness. Well, what we often find in serving righteousness is that we have a war going on inside of us that make doing good hard and challenging because we are going against the grain of our natures. We are not morally perfect creatures yet and we are fighting a battle.

The conclusion of what I am trying to say here is that there is a difference between someone who is a believer and struggles with sin…someone who in the inward part of his heart longs to do good and sees that doing good is the best thing but fails at that. There’s a difference between that person and someone who claims to be a believer but is not committed to goodness as a manner of life. He is not bothered by his sin; in fact, he revels in it. He can claim to be a Christian but his life is not marked by a person struggling towards goodness but someone disposed towards his sinful passions with all the commitment and fervor a godless person can have…because God’s ways are not what motivates him.

So, we must believe in God for mercy because we cannot earn salvation. And we must persevere in doing good also, in response to God’s mercy. It’s like James put it: “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.”

[classyT]

Jake,

interesting post. I agree for the MOST part. :)

first lets get this out of the way... ActionJackson who left and won't came back because he was offended ( not by Christians but by others) was a 7th day Adventist. He was so steeped in the law mixed with grace it was difficult for me to agree with many of the things he believed about grace, the law, and christianity. I liked him as a person though.

Ok, secondly when a person is saved, sealed with the Holy Spirit, he or she will want to do good works. The Holy Spirit resides in them and he is HOLY and it is going to happen it is only a matter of time. But, sometimes it does take TIME.
As Christians we expect people to get their act together right away. For instance a friend of mine who lived with a man for 18 years got saved. The man wouldn't marry her and because of that she wouldn't leave him even though they were living in sin and she knew it was wrong. I shook my head back in the day. I stood in judgement of her to a certain extent, she was saved for the love, she knew it was wrong! Get it together chickeepoo.(that is what I actually thought! Did Jesus ever tell that woman at the well to get her life together, to repent? Instead he showed her grace, showed her who he was! THAT is life changing.

What I have learned since:

It takes us time to change, not all of us, some do right away. But the Lord is longsuffering, and some of us are really slow learners. Sheep are really, really stupid. It is no accident we are called sheep.

Lets use an example from the Bible. Take Rahab the harlot. We find her story in the OT but she is mentioned also in book of James AND in Hebrews. Was it her faith and only her faith that saved her and justified her before God and put in in the direct blood line of our Lord Jesus Christ? Or was it her works too? She acted on what she believed.

Think about it. She heard and believed 40 years before Josuha and caleb came knocking on her door. She knew the red sea parted and believed ALL the Lord had done for the Israelites. Her behavior didn't change.. she was still a harlot. BUT when the spies came what did she do? She helped them because she believed God gave them land. Now, what was her works? She helped them.. but notice how she helped them! She lied, she deceived... wow! She broke a few commandments just in helping. Did God see that as righteous OR was he looking at her FAITH and what she believed. Because her works, while the result was good, was clearly wrong.
She acted on what she believed. It wasn't her ACTIONS that were righteous, it was her Faith.

The book of James is simply about practical christian living. If I share the gospel with someone who is hungry and cold, and but I don't feed them real food and put clothes on them and help them find shelter.. what GOOD does my faith do? The person in need will look at me like I'm crazy.

There are plenty of people who know Jesus is God and died on the cross. But saying you are a Christian and really being one is two different things. Only the Lord Jesus knows the heart. According to the bible, the true believer WILL bear good fruit. So I never worry too much about works in a person... it will happen if they are truly saved.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting classyT

There are plenty of people who know Jesus is God and died on the cross. But saying you are a Christian and really being one is two different things.

I agree with the above sentence. Though I like to say "saved" rather than "christian." Because many are practicing christians, yet they may not actually be saved.

But a point I would like to make is that salvation is as of yet incomplete in all those who are still on Earth presently. What I mean by that is that only their souls have been reborn (renewed, saved). Their bodies are still under "the law of sin." (Romans 7:25) And in that sense the saved appear no different (to us) from those who do good works and are yet unsaved.