[HeadStrongBoy]

Wondergirl, I see your encapsulation of salvation by the use of Ephesians 2:8,9 as an extreme OVERSIMPLIFICATION. After all it took God the entire Bible to present the Gospel to the world.

And yes I can give a summation that includes one very important aspect you seem to have excluded from your "encapsulation." That is the aspect of judgment and the coming Judgment Day on the unsaved of the world. Matthew 5:13 speaks about salt having lost its savour. Salt being a symbol God uses for judgment.

A much more balanced picture of the WHOLE GOSPEL is given by 2 Corinthians 2:15 and 16. And you could throw in verse 17 for good measure. Happy reading !

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl, I see your encapsulation of salvation by the use of Ephesians 2:8,9 as an extreme OVERSIMPLIFICATION.

I asked you for a summary only of salvation, not of damnation.

[Fr_Chuck]

But that is the trouble, Salvation is simple, people were being saved after Christs death with no bible, just the very simple story of Jesus death and raising from the dead.

Trying to make it complicated is the real problem, Peter when he talked and converted and saved people after Christ death had no writings from Paul, and neither did Mathew or any of the other churches,

In fact even up to the Catholic Church deciding what books made up the bible, not all churches even had all of the books. And since they were hand written, it was most likely years and years before they had all of the writings.

Salvation is simple, until man confuses it with religion

[dwashbur]

And further we can "ACCEPT" Jesus every day and twice on Sunday, but that does NOT get us saved. He is the one who must accept us OR NOT.

John 6:37, 40. The Father calls, but we are required to respond. And anyone who responds, Jesus won't drive them away.

It sounds to me like you want to absolve yourself of any responsibility in your own salvation; "God accepts me so it doesn't matter if I've ever responded or not." There's a fine balance between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. The biggest errors come when people lean too far in one direction or the other. The Bible teaches both. Get used to it.

[Wondergirl]

And anyone who responds, Jesus won't drive them away.

I wonder why HSB thinks Jesus "accepts them or not"? Why would Jesus not accept someone?

[dwashbur]

I wonder why HSB thinks Jesus "accepts them or not"? Why would Jesus not accept someone?

Bad breath? ;)

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Fr_Chuck:
"...the Catholic Church deciding what books made up the bible."

It is true that the Catholic Church has added some books to ITS version of the Bible called "The Apocrypha." However those books do not really belong there, in my opinion and in the opinion of some others. Also I believe that God alone decided what books should be included in the Bible, and which ones should not be included. Because God is the actual author of the Bible, and the various names given to the various books are only the names of people that God used as scribes that took His dictation.

It is also true that many people were saved without having access to the complete Bible as we do today. But the fact remains that WE DO HAVE ACCESS to the complete Bible. And it is a wonderful blessing from God. And He expects His people to appreciate it, and to respect it, and to make EVERY EFFORT to keep learning more and more truth from His word. And the plain fact is that the Bible is NOT a SIMPLE BOOK. So to try and simplify God's message by ignoring the Bible is NOT the best approach to understanding salvation.

[Wondergirl]

However those books do not really belong there, in my opinion and in the opinion of some others.

Your opinion and the opinion of "others" may very well be incorrect. Certainly the Catholic Church disagrees with you.

Also I believe that God alone decided what books should be included in the Bible, and which ones should not be included.

Please quote from the Bible God's list of accepted books.

Because God is the actual author of the Bible, and the various names given to the various books are only the names of people that God used as scribes that took His dictation.

I'll let dwashbur respond to this one, if he wishes to. He has taken far more theology courses than I have.

So to try and simplify God's message by ignoring the Bible is NOT the best approach to understanding salvation.

The salvation message in the Bible is actually very simple. Old Testament SOS = Show's Oyour Sin. New Testament SOS = Show's Oyour Savior. Amen.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Why would Jesus not accept someone?"

The answer is that Jesus is God. And God works and CAN work ONLY ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LAW. His law states that "The soul that sinneth it shall die." Therefore the death penalty MUST BE PAID for every sinful soul that is chosen to be saved. The fact is that Jesus MADE PAYMENT ONLY FOR S-O-M-E. NOT for all human beings that ever lived. Therefore God must reject those that Jesus has NOT MADE PAYMENT FOR.

[Wondergirl]

Therefore God must reject those that Jesus has NOT MADE PAYMENT FOR.

Jesus died for all.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting dwashbur:
"Bad Breath?"

And the mockery continues.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Jesus died for all."

Please quote from the Bible where it says that Jesus died for the sins of all humanity that ever lived on Earth.

[Wondergirl]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Jesus died for all."

Please quote from the Bible where it says that Jesus died for the sins of all humanity that ever lived on Earth.

That's why we read the entire Bible, to find that out.

1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 Tim. 2:6, "[Jesus] gave Himself a ransom for all."

Heb. 2:9, "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life."

[HeadStrongBoy]

Wondergirl, you very conveniently omitted Ephesians 1:4,5, and 11. Are you saying that God chose ALL (us) to "be holy and without blame." That is He made payment for all, and chose all. BUT some of those He chose would not actually be saved ? That would be a contradiction of John 6:39. "That all of which He hath given me I should lose nothing..."

You SAY that "we read the entire Bible." But you do not actually APPLY the light of the whole Bible to every verse. Otherwise there COULD BE NO CONTRADICTION, as I have indicated.

[Wondergirl]

Are you saying that God chose ALL (us) to "be holy and without blame."

I'm saying (the NT says) Jesus died for all.

Are you a Calvinist?

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"I'm saying...etc."

No, the way you read the NT, it says that.

Taking into account the verses I have quoted it says something altogether different.

[Wondergirl]

Taking into account the verses I have quoted it says something altogether different.

Then, one of us may be wrong.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
Then, one or both...etc.

I agree. Very democratic of you to say so.

But... how many logical positions on this issue are there ?
[1]He died for all of humanity.
[2]He died for only the elect. (Some of humanity) A remnant.
[3]Other ? (Unknown)

[Wondergirl]

1. Christ died for some of the sins of all humanity.

2. Christ died for all the sins of some of humanity.

3. Christ died for all the sins of all humanity.

I vote for #3.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Clearly you're free to vote all you want. But my point is that we need to base doctrine on a careful evaluation of the Bible. And not permit it to degenerate to a mere expression of my opinion versus the opinions of others.