[RickJ]

Zzzzzzzzzz :rolleyes:

Lenox does not read replies. He just keeps regurgitating the crap that has been fed him.

Lenox, can you think on your own?

[artlady]

I would like to submit my quote for consideration.

“We need to promote greater tolerance and understanding among the peoples of the world. Nothing can be more dangerous to our efforts to build peace and development than a world divided along religious, ethnic or cultural lines. In each nation, and among all nations, we must work to promote unity based on our shared humanity.”
– Kofi Annan

[RickJ]

I confess that I have not responded in a teaching way as I should have.

I offer an olive branch to lenox, who I should consider a brother.

Lenox, pick what you think is the "worst" of Roman Catholic Teaching: Tell us what you think we (Roman Catholics) believe - and tell us why you believe it is wrong - and let's go from there.

Fair enough for you ?

[RickJ]

Amen, Artlady. Here is a similar exhortation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

[artlady]

Amen, Artlady. Here is a similar exhortation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

I like that.While much of my Catholic upbringing was very strict and difficult to comprehend,I always got the tenent of love your brother,and judge not lest ye be judged.

I would never consider maligning someone's religious belief.It is wrong on so many levels.

Thank-you for your insight.

[Wondergirl]

Actually, we are Christian because the Catholic Church fathers kept the teachings together. We owe that Church a huge thank you.

[JoeT777]

I like that.While much of my Catholic upbringing was very strict and difficult to comprehend,I always got the tenent of love your brother,and judge not lest ye be judged.

I would never consider maligning someones religious belief.It is wrong on so many levels.

Thank-you for your insight.

When I see such definitive lists (all untrue of course) it always reminds me of Archbishop Fulton Sheen's quote, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

Not only are the criticisms wrong, but so are the facts. You would think if he was going to malign someone, the least he could do is get the facts right. Not only that but there's so few of them. If lenox263 is a bigger person than what's indicated by this list then he'll find out for himself just how wrong he is?

Wow, wax candles? I never heard that one! How does burning candles become a big thing? And I pray to God every day that there is a daily Mass! Are these really supposed to be criticisms? I wonder if Lenox263 got his criticisms mixed up with the attributes of the Church.

I heard that the local First Baptist Church down the street just put in electric lights; I wonder what that does to them? I hope it's not bad; I've got friends who go to Church there. If I sound like I'm being cynical it's only because I am

JoeT

[JoeT777]

WHY I AM ROMAN CATHOLIC:
I am Roman Catholic because it is the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church of Jesus Christ. It is that organization receiving Christ's breath and prevailing against the gates of hell since. Let me try to explain using some trite objections.

1. OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ ... 310AD.

It's true; those traditions of men should be avoided. But, the Roman Church isn't a tradition of men, but rather it was commissioned by Christ.

2. Wax Candles introduced in church about 320AD.

This really fascinates me. How is it that wax Candles is a bad thing? And what would really be interesting is to know how they came about in 320 A.D. Further, were they a newly invented? What is your idea of what a Christian should use for light? Are electric light bulbs acceptable? To be a good Christian according to Lenox263 must we use incandescent or fluorescent?

3. Veneration of angles and dead saints about 375

To venerate is to solicit the good will, or to revere. The Scriptures refer to payers to the dead. If people didn't pray to the dead what was this verse all about, “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2Macc 12:46)

4. The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394AD.

there are scriptural references to Mass being said in Scripture, with offerings and the taking of the Eucharist. Literature in the first century suggests Mass, much like today's, was said. What's the significance of it being said daily? Are we not to worship God daily, or only on Wednesdays and Sundays?

And if there is no Mass, then why do we read in scriptures, “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise always to God, that is to say, the fruit of lips confessing to his name.” (Hebrews 13:15)

5. The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, 'Mother of God', as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in .... 431AD.

Mary isn't worshiped. She is venerated. There is a difference. Let's see the woman that bore Christ is a mother. Christ is One Person in the Trinity; God. It can logically be said that Mary was the mother of God. "Mother of God was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus held Mary to be Theotokos. This had been a belief of the Catholic faith since Christ. Irenaeus wrote regarding what came to be known as Theotoko, circa 175 A.D. So you point is what? Christ wasn't born of a virgin woman?

6. Priests began to dress differently from the laity in 500AD.

And this means what? Are you afraid they'll catch a cold without coats? So what?

7. The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great about the year 593AD.

Catholics hold that the doctrine of purgatory is Scriptural, while not directly called “purgatory” it can be inferred through scripture that there is such a thing, similar to the way we infer the Trinity in Scripture.

8. The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ ...600AD. The Word of god forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1Cor.14:9).

Get real! Latin was the common language. When Latin fell out of favor in the secular world the Church taught it to all the faithful and so that they could understand the Mass, and so that, like the One faith they held, there was only One language. This was done primarily because Latin was the Church's official language. It was only until after the second Vatican Council in 1964 that Mass was said in the language of the participants.

9 The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church about 600AD. (Matt. 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)

I've said to my neighbor, “I pray you, please cut your grass”. Am I going to hell for praying to my neighbor. Or maybe you don't understand what 'pray' means?

10. The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas, in the year 610AD. This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory I, then bishop of Rome, refused the title, but his, successor, Boniface III, first assumed title "Pope." Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Lk. 22:24-26;Eph.1:22-23;Col.1:18;lCor.3:11)... is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that there is no real lst century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

The first Pope was appointed by Christ, (Matt 16) It doesn't matter if Peter didn't go within 1,000 miles of Rome. It wasn't one of Christ's requirements - "Go to Rome" But, that's were his bones were found.

11. The kissing of the Pope's feet began in 709AD. It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19: 1 0; 22:9).

Acts 10:25-26 certainly doesn't say you shouldn't kiss the Pope's feet. What it said was that Peter lifted him up. It doesn't say 'thou shall not kiss feet.'

It's likely that kissing the feet came from venerating the Pope. The first written documentation of this honor was in “liber Pontificalis” which tells of Emperor Justin kissing the feet of Pope John I (523-526); a closer to the time of pagan Rome. Even still, at least 2 centuries had past since Rome was a pagan state.

The Kissing of the Feet:" And kings shall … worship thee with their face toward the earth, and they shall lick up the dust of thy feet. And thou shalt know that I am the Lord, for they shall not be confounded that wait for him". Isaias 49:23

Then there is the Luke 7, where the woman kissed Christ's feet. Why did Christ allow this sinner to touch his feet? Are we not to emulate Christ's life? If a sinner can honor Christ in such a manner shouldn't we honor his Vicar in the same way?

12. The Temporal power of the Popes began 750AD. When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matt 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38).

No the temporal power of the Pope began in about 325 A.D. with the Roman Emperor Constantine. Unlike an invisible church, the Church holds that its powers are exercised under its commission by Christ; this commission spans both the spiritual world and the temporal. It might surprise you that the Church still rightly claims a certain temporal power.

13. Worship of cross, of images and relics was authorized in 788AD. This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

Relics are not 'worshiped.' And it was circa 325 when ST. Helena made searching for relics a Christian passion. However, there are many different traditions of Holy Relics which had once been associated with Christ. There are claims of certain relics of Christ, Peter, and some of the other Apostles. None of which are 'worshiped'.

14. Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized in 850AD.

Eliseus used salt in the water (Cf. 2Kings 2:19 sqq.) Salting the Holy water is done as a blessing during high Mass. I understand that it was formulated into Gregorian Mass; both St. Augustine and John the Deacon write about it. Apparently it was not universal until St. Gregory.

15. The veneration of St. Joseph began in 890AD.

It's my understanding that St. Joseph has always been venerated.

16. The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV, in the year 965AD.

Oh, my!

17. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV in 995AD. Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom, 1:7; I Cor. 1:2).

I'm sure Saints have been canonized since Peter the first Pope, even still if they are Saints they are only dead to the world. The baptized faithful in the Church are to be called Saints. And how is this a detriment to Catholics?

18. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed in the year 998AD.

Once again you need to get you facts straight. We do fast, sometimes on Fridays sometimes on other Holy days. Fasting can be found in Scripture and Catholics have fasted for two millennium.

Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 7OOAD. This is against the plain teaching of the bible. (Read Matt.15:10 1Cor. 10:25; 1Tim.4:1-3).

I like that, a Pope of commerce. Ha! Where in the world does this come from?

19. The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century. The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and not to be repeated, but only commiserated in the Lord's Supper. (Read Heb.7:27; 9:26-28; 10: I 0- 14).

No, sorry about that, but the mass is a real participation in Christ's sacrifice. Read John 6:55 –59

He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

A real presence of Christ; no ambiguity, no allegories, simply eat, drink. Christ said, “I am the bread of life.” Not, I am 'like' the bread, or the bread is 'like' me.

20. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year 1079AD. Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Tim. 3:2,5, and 12: Matt 8:14-15).

Read 1 Corinthians 7:7-8 and 32-35. Priests were ordained since Christ see St. Jerome, "In Isaiam", XIX, 18; St. Gregory the Great, "Moral.", XXXII, xx. Tertullian, Exhortation to Chastity 7.

Your facts are wrong again.

21. The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090AD. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans 1090AD. The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ (Matt 6:5-13).

Actually, it came from a 'cord of knots' used by monks to keep track of their prayer recitals.

Your date may be generally correct. There was a Countess Godiva of Coventry (c. 1075) who left in a will a statue of Our Lady and what may be a prototype of what we view as a Rosary today that was a cord with bone knotted in the string. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Rosary

Hail Mary: HAIL MARY, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (this is Scriptural see Luke 1) Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death (this half is a petition to pry for us). Amen.


Seditious those Scriptural verses, right?

22. The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion ...1184AD.

Should we discuss the hundreds of thousands killed by the Protestants in the 1500's and 1600's at the same time as we discuss the inquisition?

23. The sale of Indulgence, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, began in the year 1190AD. Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic, and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

While indulgences were sold, the sale of indulgences was never sanctioned by Rome. It was a political ploy by German's to break from Roman dominance. In short, there was more propaganda then fact.

24. The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215AD. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Bible condemns such absurdities; for the Lords Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. (Read Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; I Cor. 11:26).

This is insulting; it is not an absurdity, unless you consider Christ's own words absurd. I would refer you to John 6:55-59 once again. Furthermore, writings from the 1st century refer to the “Real Presence” of Christ in Eucharist.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Originally Posted by lenox263 View Post
3. Veneration of angles and dead saints about 375

We didn't even venerate "angles" in high school geometry! We may have venerated a hypoteneuse or two though...

[lenox263]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
Amen, Artlady. Here is a similar exhortation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?

15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Ephesians 4

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Any Religion not Identified WITH THE WORD OF GOD IN ALL ITS WAYS is not of God BUT OF THE SERPENT THE DEVIL(OPPOSER)

LEVIATHAN - jOINED wITH THE Serpent

[artlady]

When I see such definitive lists (all untrue of course) it always reminds me of Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s quote, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

Not only are the criticisms wrong, but so are the facts. You would think if he was going to malign someone, the least he could do is get the facts right. Not only that but there’s so few of them. If lenox263 is a bigger person than what’s indicated by this list then he’ll find out for himself just how wrong he is?

Wow, wax candles? I never heard that one! How does burning candles become a big thing? And I pray to God every day that there is a daily Mass! Are these really supposed to be criticisms? I wonder if Lenox263 got his criticisms mixed up with the attributes of the Church.

I heard that the local First Baptist Church down the street just put in electric lights; I wonder what that does to them? I hope it’s not bad; I’ve got friends who go to Church there. If I sound like I’m being cynical it’s only because I am

JoeT

The quote by Archbishop Fulton Sheen is wonderful.It sums things up so well.I just thought the days of religious persecution were over. Shouldn't we be moving forward in our thinking?

The candles,I assume are considered to be Pagan in nature :rolleyes:

I live in a very multi diverse community and many of the African Americans here are Baptist and the loveliest people you would ever want to meet. I do not think Lenox 's stand is representative of them as a group. There will always be the fundamentalist few who give a poor representation of the group as a whole.

[lenox263]

The Scriptures Specifically explains that this system is the Antichrist.

[JoeT777]

We didn't even venerate "angles" in high school geometry! We may have venerated a hypoteneuse or two though....

You’ve got an acute eye, I skimmed right over it. Not to go off on a tangent, but being students of Euclid we do love angles around here. Not to be obtuse, but we avoid venerating Hypotenuse. I’ve discovered a dirty secret about his past; his past linage is rooted in product of two squares!

JoeT

[lenox263]

The quote by Archbishop Fulton Sheen is wonderful.

Such is human wisdom which is great in the eyes of human nature I don't take my inspiration from Archibishops,Priets, Pastors, - There is only one inspirator that is the word of God not men. I do not need any man to me or do you The Lord Specifically told of this in the last days of trying to please men rather than God AND LISTENING TO THE TEACHING OF CARNAL Mind rather than the inspirational words of the spirit. Which specifically says to flee from Traditions of men which makes the Word of God of none effect. The Lord who are his who follow his teaching.

12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Please don't quote from archibishops or any other Quote the Holy Scripture that is the only Authority received from God

[JoeT777]

The quote by Archbishop Fulton Sheen is wonderful… Please don't quote from Archbishops or any other Quote the Holy Scripture that is the only Authority received from God

It should be understood that Catholics don't worship a book, the Bible. Rather, Catholic teaching is based on God's revelations to man found both in the Traditions of the Church and Holy Scriptures, they must both be in harmony with each other. Consequently, Catholics are not restricted to 'Bible only'.

I'll be happy to stop writing if God's Truth makes you uncomfortable.

Have you ever considered where Scripture came from? How did Holy Scripture come to you from the first Christians, who where Catholic, to today? Scripture is written Catholic Tradition.

JoeT

[galveston]

The Anti-Christ will be a political leader.

The false prophet will LOOK like a Christ (horns like a lamb) but will teach Satan's doctrines. (speak like a dragon)

The whore riding on the beast will be the united world wide religion, headed up by --? Composed of ALL false and corrupted religions.

Lenox sure poked the hornet's nest. We should all PERSONALLY search the Scriptures to verify that OUR faith is firmly rooted there. You can't take ANYONE'S word for what is right without checking it out. Even mine!

[Wondergirl]

Lenox sure poked the hornet's nest. We should all PERSONALLY search the Scriptures to verify that OUR faith is firmly rooted there. You can't take ANYONE'S word for what is right without checking it out. Even mine!

Or Lenox's...

And I do think God is a lot bigger than we give Him credit for. We continually stuff him into little boxes of our own interpretation.

[galveston]

Have you ever considered where Scripture came from? How did Holy Scripture come to you from the first Christians, who where Catholic, to today? Scripture is written Catholic Tradition.

JoeT

If this is true then you have a problem.

The RC traditions written in the Bible do not support the later RC traditions, and in some cases actually contradict them.

What now?

[RickJ]

The Christian "Bible" was not recognized, as it is today, until about 300 years after Christ.

Prior to the recognition of the "Canon", Christians read and revered many other writings from the generation of the Apostles.

[galveston]

The Christian "Bible" was not recognized, as it is today, until about 300 years after Christ.

Prior to the recognition of the "Canon", Christians read and revered many other writings from the generation of the Apostles.

OK, but that still doesn't resolve the contradictions between what was written and later traditions.

Your belief in Papal infallibility will forever keep you and I from agreeing. No bad feelings, I hope.