[Akoue]

Just an aside, really...

Augustine has this remarkable thing to say about this in The City of God. Writing at a time when the great persecutions were not long past he urges his readers to admire the faith of those who will live to see the last times, to endure in faith the terrible suffering that is to come. He even suggests that their faith compares favorably to that of the martyrs. Augustine certainly took end times prophecy seriously, going so far as to lament the great trials that will be suffered by even the most faithful.

So one can take prophecy seriously here without embracing a very recent fad, namely belief in the rapture. And I am genuinely struck by how very recent all this talk about rapture is.

[JoeT777]

Akoue:

Just an aside, really...

Augustine has this remarkable thing to say about this in The City of God. Writing at a time when the great persecutions were not long past he urges his readers to admire the faith of those who will live to see the last times, to endure in faith the terrible suffering that is to come. He even suggests that their faith compares favorably to that of the martyrs. Augustine certainly took end times prophecy seriously, going so far as to lament the great trials that will be suffered by even the most faithful.

So one can take prophecy seriously here without embracing a very recent fad, namely belief in the rapture. And I am genuinely struck by how very recent all this talk about rapture is.

I understand that both Clement (?-215) and Origen (185-232) had similar views. Either way, some of Augustine’s writing seems to advance that “tribulation” may be a personal experience; not a single event experienced universally.

In the day of tribulation I have sought out God Psalm 76:2. Who are you that doest this thing? In the day of your tribulation take heed what you seek out. If a jail be the cause of tribulation, you seek to get forth from jail: if fever be the cause of tribulation, you seek health: if hunger be the cause of tribulation, you seek fulness: if losses be the cause of tribulation, you seek gain: if expatriation be the cause of tribulation, you seek the home of your flesh. And why should I name all things, or when could I name all things? Do you wish to be one leaping over? In the day of your tribulation seek out God: not through God some other thing, but out of tribulation God, that to this end God may take away tribulation, that you may without anxiety cleave unto God. In the day of my tribulation, I have sought out God: not any other thing, but God I have sought out. And how have you sought out? With my hands in the night before Him.... St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 77

And

If I walk in the midst of tribulation, You shall revive me [Psalm 137:7]. True it is: whatsoever tribulation you are in, confess, call on Him; He frees you, He revives you....Love the other life, and you shall see that this life is tribulation… St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 138

I’m not necessarily advancing a personal versus a universal tribulation; however it seems to me that Augustine left the door open for the idea.

JoeT

[Akoue]

Joe,

Origen is tricky on these issues. He sometimes seems to have held the view that there are multiple falls and multiple returns to God (though some scholars, e.g. Crouzel, argue that he didn't in fact hold this view). A further complication is the fact that he argues for apokatastasis, or the view that all creation, including the devil, will ultimately be saved. This was anathematized by the Fourth Ecumenical Council in 553. (It's so hard with Origen because his principle work on this, On Principles [Peri Archon], has not fared particularly well over the years: We have all of it in a really bad Latin translation, and the Greek of some, but not all, of the really crucial bits.)

Augustine is very suspicious of the idea that we can know, or really even predict, much about the "end times". He discusses it at some length in bk.20 of the City of God, but he is tentative: He often says that we should be really careful about arrogating to ourselves a knowledge of things that Christ himself claimed not to have had ("only the Father knows").

That said, he does think that the Church is in for some rough times. His focus is on the Church--it is the Church that will suffer. And, as he makes clear, particularly in his anti-Donatist works, the Church is the communion of the faithful under the authority of the bishops, the Mystical Body with Christ as its Head. In any event, in the passage you cite, Augustine isn't talking about THE tribulation; he's just talking about plain old tribulation, the stuff each of us has to contend with.

In ch. 7 of bk. 20, Augustine does reject the 1,000 years business, stating that he also "entertained this notion at one time" but has since thought better of it. He refers to those who do hold this view a "materialists" and "millenarians". He then proceeds to explain what he thinks is really going on in Rev.20.

It's worth noting that he also says that God has been judging all along, since Adam and Eve. In other words, he takes a fairly deflationary attitude toward some of this apocalypticism.

[JoeT777]

Joe,

Origen is tricky on these issues. He sometimes seems to have held the view that there are multiple falls and multiple returns to God (though some scholars, e.g., Crouzel, argue that he didn't in fact hold this view). A futher complication is the fact that he argues for apokatastasis, or the view that all creation, including the devil, will ultimately be saved. This was anathematized by the Fourth Ecumenical Council in 553. (It's so hard with Origen because his principle work on this, On Principles [Peri Archon], has not fared particularly well over the years: We have all of it in a really bad Latin translation, and the Greek of some, but not all, of the really crucial bits.)

Augustine is very suspicious of the idea that we can know, or really even predict, much about the "end times". He discusses it at some length in bk.20 of the City of God, but he is tentative: He often says that we should be really careful about arrogating to ourselves a knowledge of things that Christ himself claimed not to have had ("only the Father knows").

That said, he does think that the Church is in for some rough times. His focus is on the Church--it is the Church that will suffer. And, as he makes clear, particularly in his anti-Donatist works, the Church is the communion of the faithful under the authority of the bishops, the Mystical Body with Christ as its Head. In any event, in the passage you cite, Augustine isn't talking about THE tribulation; he's just talking about plain old tribulation, the stuff each of us has to contend with.

In ch. 7 of bk. 20, Augustine does reject the 1,000 years business, stating that he also "entertained this notion at one time" but has since thought better of it. He refers to those who do hold this view a "materialists" and "millenarians". He then proceeds to explain what he thinks is really going on in Rev.20.

It's worth noting that he also says that God has been judging all along, since Adam and Eve. In other words, he takes a fairly deflationary attitude toward some of this apocalypticism.

Thanks, very informative. Now we know who to rely on for interpretations of the Church Fathers. Help by explaining how you made the distinction between The Trib and the everyday trib in the Augustine citations above;your views would be insightful.

JoeT

[Akoue]

In the commentary on Psalms, Augustine is talking about what I'll call mundane adversities, the sorts of struggles I or you or anyone faces in the course of our lives. "This life is tribulation" means, right, life is hard, it's a struggle. Living hurts.

Contrast this with THE tribulation, the end-time event, global suck-fest, grand poo-bah of suffering. The former is universal--we all experience it--but also personal and, sometimes, private. The latter is not mundane, it's not run-of-the-mill "life sucks" suffering. Now this, THE tribulation, will be suffered--Augustine says--by the Church Universal. It will be dismembered by heresy (people breaking off from it), it will be persecuted, it will suffer. People will say that it's false, that it has betrayed the teachings of Christ, and they will present themselves as the true followers of Christ. But it will, of course, prevail (yea, happy ending!).

Does this help? I'm happy to try again if you'd like me to.

[JoeT777]

In the commentary on Psalms, Augustine is talking about what I'll call mundane adversities, the sorts of struggles I or you or anyone faces in the course of our lives. "This life is tribulation" means, right, life is hard, it's a struggle. Living hurts.

Contrast this with THE tribulation, the end-time event, global suck-fest, grand poo-bah of suffering. The former is universal--we all experience it--but also personal and, sometimes, private. The latter is not mundane, it's not run-of-the-mill "life sucks" suffering. Now this, THE tribulation, will be suffered--Augustine says--by the Church Universal. It will be dismembered by heresy (people breaking off from it), it will be persecuted, it will suffer. People will say that it's false, that it has betrayed the teachings of Christ, and they will present themselves as the true followers of Christ. But it will, of course, prevail (yea, happy ending!).

Does this help? I'm happy to try again if you'd like me to.

This works, very cleverly said!

JoeT

[arcura]

Those preachers who tell the world that the last day is soon are NOT paying attention to what Scripture says.
Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
More people today expect it than ever before manly because of the rapture teaching and preaching.
I don't expect ANY return of Christ for at least 100 years, probably more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[margar]

Just a note to add. The scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. Who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? Doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? What are your thoughts

[classyT]

just a note to add. the scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? what are your thoughts

There will be many that will be saved during the tribulation period. Not everyone is sent to hell.

[adam7gur]

just a note to add. the scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? what are your thoughts

Simple and accurate!

[classyT]

Those preachers who tell the world that the last day is soon are NOT paying attention to what Scripture says.
Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
More people today expect it than ever before manly because of the rapture teaching and preaching.
I don't expect ANY return of Christ for at least 100 years, probably more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

The world laughs at the thought of a rapture or the return of Christ. I don't know why you think the world expects it. They may have HEARD it but they are NOT expecting it. YOU are a Chrstian and you aren't expecting it. The Lord is coming back as a thief in the night but that isn't for the believers... that is for the world. Check out the world... in what way are they behaving would make you think for a second that they are expecting ANYTHING?

[adam7gur]

Fred
As you correctly wrote ,Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
It is the world that is not expecting Him.
All those who are His , are not of the world!
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Please don't take this message like it is anything more than simply testing and studying the Scriptures.
As long as you are willing to discuss and get somewhere with this I will be here with you, but if this is somehow making you feel uncomfortable, I will not scandalize you.

[450donn]

Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

You are making quite a thing of this aren't you? It is fairly simple stuff if you were to get your head out of a one church mentality and listen to other faiths for a bit to see how the scriptures are interperte their. No one church or faith is 100% correct in how they understand the scriptures. I sit under the teachings of one denomination, but I am not exclusive to that denominations teachings. I will listen to any preacher that teaches the word of God and not some far out theology from man. Sitting under one theology for too long can brain wash a person into believing that that is the only way and that all others are false.

[classyT]

Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

I'll get the scriptures for you.. right now I am not at home.

[arcura]

margar,
The fact is the left behind are will be the living. It is the dead in Christ that will rise.
That is what I believe,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Don:

I'm glad you didn't drop off.

You are making quite a thing of this aren't you? It is fairly simple stuff if you were to get your head out of a one church mentality and listen to other faiths for a bit to see how the scriptures are interperte their. No one church or faith is 100% correct in how they understand the scriptures. I sit under the teachings of one denomination, but I am not exclusive to that denominations teachings. I will listen to any preacher that teaches the word of God and not some far out theology from man. Sitting under one theology for too long can brain wash a person into believing that that is the only way and that all others are false.

In your past response you seemed to indicate that you were going to “hang-up” (my words, not yours). I’m glad you didn’t.

It is important to understand that there can only be one truth, one absolute truth in God. For me, to hold a synthesized faith based on my own will, my own desire is liberal theology. The result is an autonomous pre-determined faith based on my subjective will, not the will of God. Instead, I find inductive reasoning that weigh actions on traditional Catholic morals to be instructive and informative as well as a grace from God. Therefore, what may seem to you to be unyielding intolerance for other views is in fact orthodoxy in faith. We do know that “disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa,” the converse will be rewarded in faith.

To know truth is to know God. Ultimately, logic leads to the Scriptural evidence that the Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, God's Kingdom; right-reasoning requires conformity to it’s authority to teach. Therefore, once again what appears to you as rigidness is in fact a search for truth within the halls of God’s Kingdom. (see link)

In the case of the Darby's rapture theories I’m not constrained, except that the assertion must be in harmony with Scripture and Apostolic Tradition. In so doing I’ve come to the conclusion (without the benefit of "brainwashing") that Darby is wrong.

Could your assertion of intolerance be because I’m Catholic and can’t come to that conclusion without being “brainwashed”? Or is it that, at least in this small issue, you fear that a Catholic may be right? Is it the Catholic Church you dislike or is it my idea that Darby’s theories can’t be right that you dislike? I’m still willing to debate my position with you and the others and I can assure you my responses will be orthodox.

My question to you is why would anyone pollute the intellect with “far out theology from man” and yet be unwilling to listen to Catholic truth? Are you really looking for truth or just some feel-good-fairy-tale-so-you-can-sleep-at-night sort of thing?

JoeT

[450donn]

Didn't drop off. I just find it pointless to discuss this further at this time. Since we have different opinions of what the word of God says. You believe that you are right and so do I. We will one day in the not to distant future see which is correct.

[JoeT777]

Didn't drop off. I just find it pointless to discuss this further at this time. Since we have different opinions of what the word of God says. You believe that you are right and so do I. We will one day in the not to distant future see which is correct.

So you know the time and place? How do you know it will be "the not to distant future?" That's what they said in Paul's day.

JoeT

[arcura]

We will all know the truth some day.
Some sooner than others.
But I believe that those who wait for the last day of this age have a long wait of at least 100 years.
Fred

[450donn]

So, you are insisting on dragging me into this again.
If you were to listen to any of the well known bible scholars today they almost to a person believe that we are in the end times. Almost all of the propheticies have been fulfilled. Especially the one concerning Isreal becoming a nation in a day. Most from reading and studying the scriptures believe that the generation that saw Isreal's rebirth as a nation will not pass from this earth before the return of Christ.
Again, you can choose to believe or not believe, that is your right as a free thinking individual. Personally I and most evangelical Christians do believe this.
The restraining force on the earth right now against the works of satan is the Church. When the church is taken away from the earth, that will be the time that satan will gain total control of the earth for his rein od descruction as foretold in Revelations.
Sorry, this is the end of the discission for me.