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tomder55 · Jul 27, 2012, 05:22 AM

Why would you want to argue for this position anyway? Ideology is not a good thing.

OK if you are uncomforable with ideology use the word philosophy. I did not use the word until you brought it up.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by TUT317

P.S. Why would you want to argue for this position anyway? Ideology is not a good thing.

Tut

Why is ideology not a good thing? Everyone is ideological though some either pretend not to be or just lie about it.

TUT317 · Jul 27, 2012, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Why is ideology not a good thing? Everyone is ideological though some either pretend not to be or just lie about it.

Hi Steve,

Yes, it is probably true for everyone. It is for this reason I try to avoid this trap whenever possible. Some occasions are more successful than others.

The reason being is because political ideology is very seductive. It gives us the impression that when it comes to politics we can reduce the complex to the simplex. Social relationships are complex arrangements on various levels. Language also adds to this complexity. There is no simple reduction.

When we start to believe we possess,'the truth'. We also begin to believe this pursuit will solve our problems. We tend to ignore the actual realities that surround us. The more we can ignore the realities the tighter we embrace the ideology. "If only society could conform to our ideology everything would dramatically improve for everyone".

History has shown that humans have some type of psychological weakness when it comes to ideologies. We can't seem to help ourselves.

Just my opinion.

talaniman · Jul 27, 2012, 07:34 AM

I couldn't agree more TUT. Ideology isn't good for compromise, and consensus when all sides become entrenched in it.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 07:44 AM

Well, I am just a simple guy and I don't have a problem with ideology, I don't see how we can escape it. I just take issue with people who insist they aren't ideological while aggressively trying to implement their "If only society could conform to our ideology everything would dramatically improve for everyone" world view.

That is what this thread is about, a disease in search of a cure. Facts be damned, all those non-ideological liberals are just being pragmatic in forcing the church to either violate her beliefs or give up ministering to people's needs so whoever missed out of the "virtually universal" contraceptive use in this country can have birth control pills provided by others.

At least I'm being honest about my ideology. They're not.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

I couldn't agree more TUT. Idealogy isn't good for compromise, and consensus when all sides become entrenched in it.

You've couldn't have illustrated my last point any better.

talaniman · Jul 27, 2012, 08:13 AM

The churches rights stop where mine begins. That's not ideology, that's the law. And NO church will dictate MY rights. That's the law too. Its no conspiracy for a church to be a church, and not a tax exempt business, we have enough of those already.

38 states agree with me, and so does TEXAS, so don't blame Washington, blame your state legislature, and the Governor for making rules for the church. I know,any thing from us libs is a straw argument. That's cool, but it changes no facts, or the law.

Fact is, contraceptives is an answer to stopping abortions. If that's a conspiracy, or a straw argument, so be it. And the Tea Party should keep its hands off MY rights. Now that is ideology!

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

The churches rights stop where mine begins

I didn't realize the church was infringing on your rights. How so exactly?

Fact is, contraceptives is an answer to stopping abortions. If that's a conspiracy, or a straw argument, so be it. And the Tea Party should keep its hands off MY rights. Now that is ideology!

The indisputable fact is there is no shortage of access to contraceptives, and your answer is exactly what I just referred to. Your "contraceptives is an answer to stopping abortions" line is but an agenda hiding behind a cliché. FORCING the church to buy contraceptives against her beliefs is as ideological as it gets.

Once again you make my point for me. I'm just waiting for you to be honest with yourself and with us about it.

talaniman · Jul 27, 2012, 09:45 AM

You seem to be stuck in not understanding the fungibility of MONEY.

Fungibility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only by understanding this concept will you see that the church doesn't hand out, or pay for any goods or services provided the employee. NONE! They pay for a very defined service from a service provider, INSURANCE...

We have gone through this before and a failure to understand terms and concepts leaves you with misconceptions and flawed conclusions. So its not your ideology that makes for a disregard for facts and stated goals, but just a lack of expertise in this area. That's okay,the fine points of business and commerce is not for everyone.

Now these straw man conspiracy theories you have can be offset by my own conspiracy theory... the religious right is trying to impose its will on everyone, and hollering "VICTIM" is the vehicle by which they convey it. A distraction to their own nefarious goal of social dominance and control of the masses through the imposition of their version of moral law.

Put gods name on it and the right swallows this crap hook, line, and sinker, without question.

Well that's my conspiracy theory, not bad for an progressive huh? By law, my theory is as good as yours, until we get to court. Where I win because its settled law in 38 states including TEXAS. That's a fact I have linked to in previous posts.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 10:31 AM

A) Same BS in a different package. Already answered and putting a new bow on the same refuse doesn't make it more palatable. You are still forcing the church to use their money on contraceptives against their conscience and in violation of the first amendment.

B) Asking you to stop forcing your ideology on me does not infringe on your rights.

excon · Jul 27, 2012, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I didn't realize the church was infringing on your rights. How so exactly?

Hello again, Steve:

Let me see.. I'm NOT tax exempt like a church. I don't get that government handout... I'm not thrilled with that, but as long as a church sticks to churching, I have no problem with it.. But, when a church wants to BE a business and compete with your regular load bearing, tax paying business's, they want the SAME tax break they get for being church's.

So, if a MY business doesn't get the tax breaks you want the church to have, indeed I'm paying MORE than my fair share of taxes.

excon

talaniman · Jul 27, 2012, 10:37 AM

They don't infringe on my rights, because they can't, I won't let them. I don't infringe on theirs either, they just say I do. You and they think their victims, but they aren't.

Just as I have limits, boundaries and rules for acceptable behavior, DEFINED BY LAW, so do you and the church. Not liking the LAW, doesn't make you, or the church, a victim.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Lemme see.. I'm NOT tax exempt like a church. I don't get that government handout... I'm not thrilled with that, but as long as a church sticks to churching, I have no problem with it.. But, when a church wants to BE a business and compete with your regular load bearing, tax paying business's, they want the SAME tax break they get for being church's.

So, if a MY business doesn't get the tax breaks you want the church to have, indeed I'm paying MORE than my fair share of taxes.

excon

And the circle begins again. Does your business have a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, medical clinic, orphanage or some such that offers those services free of charge to the indigent? I could be wrong (but I'm not) but the church using its DONATED funds not to profit but to the serve the community is a pretty good reason to get a tax break.

You're still stuck on this silly narrative that church is trying to be a business when it isn't. As has already been shown repeatedly, the government infringed on the church's long established roles in health care, education and benevolence, not the other way around. And the proceeds from such services are returned to provide more services, not to profit monetarily, which is what you're in it for.

You know, when the church helps someone you do benefit, too. That's one less of your tax dollars wasted on inefficient government handouts.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

They don't infringe on my rights, because they can't, I wont let them. I don't infringe on theirs either, they just say I do.

You know how ridiculous that is? The church isn't infringing on your rights by your own admission, but your ideological law is forcing the church to violate their first amendment right to freedom of religion or quit being a church. You make no sense whatsoever.

talaniman · Jul 27, 2012, 12:03 PM

Then the church should take the government to court and quit hollering victim. Oh that's right, they did, and they lost. Case closed.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Then the church should take the government to court and quit hollering victim. Oh thats right, they did, and they lost. Case closed.

You should pay more attention, the church's suit is just beginning.

talaniman · Jul 27, 2012, 12:52 PM

You guys never quit, I like that in you. If you would only use your power for good and not be afraid of the rights of others.

Good Luck.

EDIT-Keep feeding the hungry, and let Sandra have sex, both can be done you know. Guess you don't.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

You guys never quit, I like that in you. If you would only use your power for good and not be afraid of the rights of others.

Now if that ain't the most ironic answer I've ever seen. What exactly about the church feeding the hungry, clothing people, furnishing shelter, educating, helping jobless pay bills, sheltering abused women, caring for orphans and healing body and soul is not using 'power' for good?

Good Luck.

EDIT-Keep feeding the hungry, and let Sandra have sex, both can be done you know. Guess you don't.

Did you not read my post again? Because Obama wants the church to to pay for Sandra to have protected sex the church will have to discriminate, violate her beliefs or cease feeding the hungry, clothing people, furnishing shelter, educating, helping jobless pay bills, sheltering abused women, caring for orphans and healing body and soul.

I mean really, Tal, you progressives have been yammering at our side about the need to take care of others, regardless of who they are, and then you tie our hands, tell us to discriminate on the basis of religion.

Like I said, you're going to miss the services the church provides, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face. And I promise, we won't go quietly while this injustice is carried out. We haven't begun to fight.

Your choice, empty stomachs or contraceptives for Sandra. It's a damn easy choice for me.

Wondergirl · Jul 27, 2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Your choice, empty stomachs or contraceptives for Sandra. It's a damn easy choice for me.

If Sandra (and others) get contraceptives, there won't be so many hungry mouths to feed.

speechlesstx · Jul 27, 2012, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If Sandra (and others) get contraceptives, there won't be so many hungry mouths to feed.

Yes I've heard. And if that doesn't work we can have forced sterilization, and with the dearth of young bodies needed to work to support that retires when they're 50 we can all be Greece. Or, we can just implement mandatory euthanasia when the state deems you've sucked the nation's resources dry long enough.

Giving Sandra a handful of contraceptives does nothing to feed the hungry child who needs to eat today. I mean really, weren't we just discussing the massive poverty problem in America a couple of weeks ago? Your solution is contraceptives. One question, are they nutritious?