[Tj3]

It is the faith in Christ that SAVES us.. the fulfill law of faith to answer HIS calling. HIS blood set us free from the curse of sin, and brought us HIS righteousness.

The calling to salvation is based on LORD one Faith one Baptism (Eph 4:5)

Right.

Now that we agree that it is the blood that saves us, is that one baptism water (making the Holy Spirit optional), or the baptism of the Holy Spirit (making water optional)?

[sndbay]

Right.

Now that we agree that it is the blood that saves us, is that one baptism water (making the Holy Spirit optional), or the baptism of the Holy Spirit (making water optional)?

Faith SAVES us = an answered call to salvation = Faith in Christ

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

or is there delusion in wanting to be filthy rags?

2 Th 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

**************************************

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

HIS Body and Blood set us free from sin, baptism is within of spirit

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

************************************

Matthew 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
( one Faith, one Baptism, One Lord )

*****************************************
Establish the law of Faith:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:26)

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, (Eph 3:17)

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (Romans 3:27)

[cozyk]

Oh brother... That's all. Oh brother...

[arcura]

What I was saying id that it looked like twisting Scripture to me.
The reason being is that the passage does not clearly say the water is flesh.
To me it says that man is born of flesh though woman.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

What I was saying id that it looked like twisting Scripture to me.
The reason being is that the passage does not clearly say the water is flesh.
To me it says that man is born of flesh though woman.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

You need to read it without forcing it to bend to your denomination's teachings. What is the topic? Being born twice, once of a woman and then being born again when you are saved. So this speaks of two birth. You will not find baptism spoken of even once in this part of scripture.

So with that in mind that it speaks of births and not of baptism, let's look at it again:

John 3:4
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
NKJV

Notice, Nicodemus is talking about two births - one of a woman and the subsequent re-birth when we are saved.

So Jesus says:

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
NKJV

Born of water (birth #1 of a woman) and born of Spirit (birth #2 when we are saved).

Fred - are you aware of the term of what happens when a woman goes into labour - her water breaks - do you know why that term is used? You might want to look it up, or ask a woman.

Then Jesus says as a matter of explanation, using Jewish parallelism:

John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

water = flesh
Spirit = Spirit

Baptism is not mentioned. By bring that into it, you are altering (or to use your word - "twisting") what it actually says.

We can verify that it has nothing to do with baptism by looking where else being born again is mention, which is here:

1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because
"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
NKJV

Note that the re-birth of salvation comes from the word of God, not baptism.

Now if you think that the topic here is baptism and not the being born again, would you please show us where baptism is mention in this discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus?

[arcura]

Sorry Tom, do not see it that way
I see it that flesh is born of flesh and to be born again requires water.
Fred

[adam7gur]

Black ink is adam7gur - blue ink is homesell
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
The theif on the cross did not "prove" his love by doing anything but believing. If I repent of my sins and the saving grace of God comes into me and then I die in a car accident hours later, I haven't proved my love other than by believing.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Why do you keep saying "make it" to the kingdom of heaven when the Holy spirit within us is our assurance that God will save us?
Yes, we will (not have to) love God and our neighbor when we are saved. That is not our "work" Jesus said our "work"(singular) "is to believe on Him who the Father sent."
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
They walked in the dessert for forty years because they disobeyed God and were not allowed to see the promised land
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they prooved their love for God!
Like they had a choice? They whined and complained and asked to go back into slavery the whole time. Joshua and Caleb were the only two that got to actually enter into the promised land because they were faithful. Even Moses, because he messed up with the rock/water thing was only permitted to see the promised land from afar.

Not many people are in the same position as the thief was.The majority of us have a lot of time in front of us and we could take take both ways if we like.The way of God , or not.
What about all the others?Did they not work for the gospel or did they just believe? And what is believing?Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Believing is obeying!
I keep telling ''make it to the kingdom of Heaven'' because Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
If the Israelites obeyed God they would all have made it much sooner.
Again , obeying is the key word!

[sndbay]

.

We can verify that it has nothing to do with baptism by looking where else being born again is mention, which is here:
[I]
1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because
"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Proven that baptism is to be born again of the spirit

Salvation is to raise from the dead as Christ raised. So the resurrection of the dead was sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. By Adam came death, by Christ came the resurrection of death. (Reference 1 Cr 15)

1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[homesell]

Right sndbay.

adam7gur,
We are almost saying the same thing. The difference is that when we believe (cling to, adhere to, rely on)in Jesus, walking in the spirit and newness of life, we don't "have to do"anything. We will "love to do" as the Father does all he does in love and not because he has to.
For example, my wife never asks me to do anything around the house so there is nothing I have to do. However, I do many things around the house because I love her and the things I do show or prove I love her. If I didn't do them, then it would be doubtful I really loved her. It also is true, I never ask her to do anything either, so when things get done, I know it's because she loves me. She doesn't "have to" do them. Each knows what is done makes the others life more pleasant, and shows love, respect and honor. What a miserable marriage it would be if either of us thought we had to do something to keep the relationship going.

[adam7gur]

Right sndbay.

adam7gur,
We are almost saying the same thing. The difference is that when we believe (cling to, adhere to, rely on)in Jesus, walking in the spirit and newness of life, we don't "have to do"anything. We will "love to do" as the Father does all he does in love and not because he has to.
For example, my wife never asks me to do anything around the house so there is nothing I have to do. However, I do many things around the house because I love her and the things I do show or prove I love her. If I didn't do them, then it would be doubtful I really loved her. It also is true, I never ask her to do anything either, so when things get done, I know it's because she loves me. She doesn't "have to" do them. Each knows what is done makes the others life more pleasant, and shows love, respect and honor. What a miserable marriage it would be if either of us thought we had to do something to keep the relationship going.

Exactly Jeff!
All I say is that all those things that I do for my wife are ''works'', aren't they?When I say ''have to'' I don't mean that my wife holds a whip and forces me to , but my heart that is filled with love for her makes me do it.
I see what you mean and I totally put my name under these words.
P.S. Sorry for not being able to give you a credit here,but as you say ''they'' won't let me!

[Tj3]

Proven that baptism is to be born again of the spirit

Salvation is to raise from the dead as Christ raised. So the resurrection of the dead was sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. By Adam came death, by Christ came the resurrection of death. (Reference 1 Cr 15)

1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Jesus' baptism in the Holy Spirit was clearly, according to John, the important baptism.

[Tj3]

Not many people are in the same position as the thief was.The majority of us have a lot of time in front of us and we could take take both ways if we like.The way of God , or not.

Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.

How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?

[arcura]

No Adam is NOT saying that.
Why do you ask such silly questions?
Fred

[Tj3]

No Adam is NOT saying that.
Why do you ask such silly questions?
Fred

Fred,

Rather than interrupting and telling me and others what we can or cannot say, why don't you let us discuss these points without your disruption?

[arcura]

Yj3.
I do NOT tell you what you can say and never did.
You can say what you please, but that does not mean that I will always agree with what you say.
Fred

[Tj3]

Back to the topic...

Not many people are in the same position as the thief was.The majority of us have a lot of time in front of us and we could take take both ways if we like.The way of God , or not.

Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.

How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?

[Tj3]

Proven that baptism is to be born again of the spirit

Salvation is to raise from the dead as Christ raised. So the resurrection of the dead was sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. By Adam came death, by Christ came the resurrection of death. (Reference 1 Cr 15)

1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Jesus' baptism in the Holy Spirit was clearly, according to John, the important baptism.

[sndbay]

Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.

The knowledge of each religious following in which you have studied has given reason for our differences. I have offered scripture being the WORD of GOD. My heart does not reflect HIS WORD to religions of demonations. You have posted three different times that the scripture in which was offered as GOD's WORD, gives you reason to think of Mormons.

All the religious demonations have flaws of teaching by man. We can see this in many ways and it does include baptism.

Clear the mind of such teaching, to allow God to reveal truth.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

Follow the Word of God...Hear HIS VOICE

Tom, Have you been baptized, if so, when and how?

[cozyk]

Just checking in . See you all are still arguing. Fred even lost his "peace and kindness" salutation. Never thought I'd see that. Go back to the drawing board and admit that with just about any given writing in the bible has truth based on your own opinion.
You can argue till the cows come home, but that is all you really have. Your opinion.

[sndbay]

Just checking in . See you all are still arguing. Fred even lost his "peace and kindness" salutation. Never thought I'd see that. Go back to the drawing board and admit that with just about any given writing in the bible has truth based on your own personal opinion.
You can argue till the cows come home, but that is all you really have. Your personal opinion.

I disagree with this because, I believe in God, and HIS power of creation. It is only your own personal opinion when you follow your own pride. God tells us to deny ourselves and follow Christ. Following your own personal opinion verse what God can reveal to you, clearly is in darkness as the scripture reference.

All souls belong to God, and we were created for HIS pleasure.

I could offer scripture which is the WORD of GOD to back this up. Just let me know if you would like me to do that.

~In Christ

p.s. Fred will always remain in peace and kindness, because it is in HIS heart of love.