[classyT]

The Apostle Paul clearly difines the body of Christ.. or the church. IT AIN't a man made institution. It is simply all believers and followers of Christ.

[Athos]

Athos,
Do you have a source for that info? I'd like to dig deeper.

Here are a few ---

From The Catholic Answer - 1996

How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?


From The Catholic Encyclopedia - 1911

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Roman Catholic
This one is quite detailed.

[dwashbur]

Here are a few ---

from The Catholic Answer - 1996

How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?


from The Catholic Encyclopedia - 1911

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Roman Catholic
This one is quite detailed.

I'm in the midst of moving right now, but I'll try to check them out as soon as I can. Thanks!

[arcura]

dwashbur, I do believe what those links say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Athos]

Athos,
Do you have a source for that info? I'd like to dig deeper.

Dwash - I provided the sources you requested several days ago, and you replied that you would look at them. Since you are posting, I assume you've had the time to look at them - they take at most several minutes.

Since I went to the effort, I think it only a matter of courtesy that you acknowledge reading the sources, and agree or rebut.

[dwashbur]

Dwash - I provided the sources you requested several days ago, and you replied that you would look at them. Since you are posting, I assume you've had the time to look at them - they take at most several minutes.

Since I went to the effort, I think it only a matter of courtesy that you acknowledge reading the sources, and agree or rebut.

As I said, I'm in the midst of moving, and my Internet connection is, um, flaky at best. Today should be the last big day of moving stuff, so I'm hoping to get to them tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.

[dwashbur]

Here are a few ---

From The Catholic Answer - 1996

How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?

Taking a break from moving after a solid week of doing most of it by myself

This is very informative. He's wrong about one thing: "The name Christian, however, was never commonly applied to the Church herself." Actually, the disciples called themselves Christians very early on; as he says, the term originated in Antioch, probably as a derogatory term that followers of Christ adopted and wore with pride. In Acts 26:28 Agrippa is very familiar with the term, and obviously understands it to mean people who follow Jesus, while Peter in 1 Pet 4:16 says that suffering as a Christian is a good thing. If he means the term was never applied as an official institutional title in the New Testament, then he's technically correct, because there was no institution in New Testament times. 98% of the use of the term "church" in the New Testament refers to individual local congregations, and there was no over-arching organization. That didn't happen until much later.

The quote of Ignatius is questionable: "He wrote, "Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). Thus, the second century of Christianity had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use. "

His quote is actually wrong: it reads "Where JESUS CHRIST is," not "where the bishop is." This is a clue to what Ignatius meant.

In Ignatius' time the word meant "universal." It hadn't come to be used in any kind of technical or label sense yet. What Ignatius is saying is, anyplace where Jesus is worshiped, the church (in the universal sense of all believers) is there; anybody who worships him anywhere is part of His body.

There's a similar problem with the quote about the Martyrdom of Polycarp. While his dates for Polycarp are okay, the document itself was actually written by Irenaeus, somewhere between 50 and 100 years later. The sentence in question (in chapter 8 if anybody wants to look it up) adds the phrase "according to the inhabited world" (a literal translation of the Greek) which indicates he's talking about any and all believers, and hence the word "catholic" again is not an institutional designation.

By the by, anybody who wants to check out these quotes can find the texts of these writings, both in their original Greek and in several English translations, at www.ccel.org and search for Apostolic Fathers.

Curiously enough, Irenaeus himself at the beginning of the document addresses it to two different "churches," which shows that the word was used in two different ways: a specific congregation, and all believers wherever they might be scattered. But once again, there's no indication of any kind of institutional use of the term "catholic." It was a common Greek word that meant "universal." The article says this:
The term "catholic" simply means "universal," and when employing it in those early days, St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Polycarp of Smyrna were referring to the Church that was already "everywhere," as distinguished from whatever sects, schisms or splinter groups might have grown up here and there, in opposition to the Catholic Church.

That's questionable at best. It's more likely he was speaking of the "universal" church as opposed to non-believers. But I can let that pass.

from The Catholic Encyclopedia - 1911

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Roman Catholic
This one is quite detailed.

This one is extremely informative. Thank you.

[arcura]

dwashbur,
Thanks for that information and your opinion on it.
It helps me understand you and your thinking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[dwashbur]

dwashbur,
Thanks for that information and your opinion on it.
It helps me understand you and your thinking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'm less interested in your understanding of me and my thinking than I am in your understanding of the evidence in question, but thanks ;)

[paraclete]

I'm less interested in your understanding of me and my thinking than I am in your understanding of the evidence in question, but thanks ;)

Don't worry you aren't going to get anything out of him, the only opinion he has is published by the RCC

[dwashbur]

Don't worry you arn't going to get anything out of him, the only opinion he has is published by the RCC

Naw, he's just a man of few words. I'm going to start calling him BB, as in BB King (that's a compliment, by the way; he's one of my guitar heroes).

[arcura]

dwashbur,
I am trying to understand.
OK?
Fred

[dwashbur]

dwashbur,
I am trying to understand.
OK?
Fred

How can I help?

And is it okay if I continue to call you BB? ;)

[Athos]

Taking a break from moving after a solid week of doing most of it by myself

This is very informative. He's wrong about one thing: "The name Christian, however, was never commonly applied to the Church herself." Actually, the disciples called themselves Christians very early on; as he says, the term originated in Antioch, probably as a derogatory term that followers of Christ adopted and wore with pride. In Acts 26:28 Agrippa is very familiar with the term, and obviously understands it to mean people who follow Jesus, while Peter in 1 Pet 4:16 says that suffering as a Christian is a good thing. If he means the term was never applied as an official institutional title in the New Testament, then he's technically correct, because there was no institution in New Testament times. 98% of the use of the term "church" in the New Testament refers to individual local congregations, and there was no over-arching organization. That didn't happen until much later.

The quote of Ignatius is questionable: "He wrote, "Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). Thus, the second century of Christianity had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use. "

His quote is actually wrong: it reads "Where JESUS CHRIST is," not "where the bishop is." This is a clue to what Ignatius meant.

In Ignatius' time the word meant "universal." It hadn't come to be used in any kind of technical or label sense yet. What Ignatius is saying is, anyplace where Jesus is worshiped, the church (in the universal sense of all believers) is there; anybody who worships him anywhere is part of His body.

There's a similar problem with the quote about the Martyrdom of Polycarp. While his dates for Polycarp are okay, the document itself was actually written by Irenaeus, somewhere between 50 and 100 years later. The sentence in question (in chapter 8 if anybody wants to look it up) adds the phrase "according to the inhabited world" (a literal translation of the Greek) which indicates he's talking about any and all believers, and hence the word "catholic" again is not an institutional designation.

By the by, anybody who wants to check out these quotes can find the texts of these writings, both in their original Greek and in several English translations, at www.ccel.org and search for Apostolic Fathers.



That's questionable at best. It's more likely he was speaking of the "universal" church as opposed to non-believers. But I can let that pass.



This one is extremely informative. Thank you.

I read your lengthy opinion about the origin of the word "Catholic", but it didn't have anything to do with the topic under discussion.

The links I posted referred to the use of the word "Roman" being used as part of the Roman Catholic Church. The use of the word "Roman" was the topic being discussed, not "Catholic".

I trust the references have satisfied your curiosity and that you now understand how "Roman" came to be added.

[dwashbur]

I read your lengthy opinion about the origin of the word "Catholic", but it didn't have anything to do with the topic under discussion.

The links I posted referred to the use of the word "Roman" being used as part of the Roman Catholic Church. The use of the word "Roman" was the topic being discussed, not "Catholic".

I trust the references have satisfied your curiosity and that you now understand how "Roman" came to be added.

I wasn't actually the one who asked that, but sure, I understand.

[Athos]

I wasn't actually the one who asked that, but sure, I understand.

Actually, you were. You asked for my sources. Here's your post -

Apr 14, 2010, 08:33 AM #333
dwashbur


Athos,
Do you have a source for that info? I'd like to dig deeper.

Glad to help out.

[dwashbur]

Actually, you were. You asked for my sources. Here's your post -

Apr 14, 2010, 08:33 AM #333
dwashbur


Athos,
Do you have a source for that info? I'd like to dig deeper.

Glad to help out.

OK. I meant I wasn't the one who originally asked the question, but it's all good.

[JoeT777]

I don't do Greek, I can only relate to the Greek alphabet in form of various mathematical algorithms; and then it only relates to a modeled reality. But, when necessary I can always skin a cat other ways – you might say when Al Gore and I invented the internet; I had an ulterior motive - other than raising up oceans and emptying pockets with a single leap of subjectivism.

So, in the way of an experiment I crunched a few numbers, so to speak, by taking St. Ignatius', Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, (circa 107 A.D.) and compare it with a digital translation. Then I could compare it with Alexander Roberts's , 'Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1. as found at New Advent by Kevin Knight. <http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm>. How much difference would I find in 'Catholic' renditions?

The Greek (CCL - Ignatius-Smyrnaeans):

1. a. Πάντες τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ἀκολουθεῖτε, ὡς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τῷ πατρί, καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερἰῳ ὡς τοῖς ἀποστόλοις. τοὺς δὲ διακόνους ἐντρέπεσθε ὡς θεοῦ ἐντολήν. μηδεὶς χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου τι πρασσέτω τῶν ἀνηκόντων εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν. ἐκείνη βεβαία εὐχαριστία ἡγείσθω, ἡ ὑπὸ ἐπίσοπον οὖσα ἢ ᾧ ἂν αὐτὸς ἐπιτρέψῃ.

Literal translation (word for word – Google Translation):

1. b. Son ἐπισκόπῳ follow all things, as Jesus Christ πατρί son and son πρεσβυτερἰῳ And as per apostolois. But his deacons as God ἐντρέπεσθε ἐντολήν. Let no one village that πρασσέτω bishop of belonging to the Church. ἐκείνη βεβαία εὐχαριστία ἡγείσθω, or in whom had been the ἐπίσοπον if he ἐπιτρέψῃ.

Common Translation found in Catholic catalogs:

1. c. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.

**************************************

The Greek (CCL Ignatius-Smyrnaeans):

2. a. ὅπου ἂν φανῇ ὁ ἐπίσκοπος, ἐκεῖ τὸ πλῆθος ἤτω, ὥσπερ ὅπου ἂν ῇ Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ἐκεῖ ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία. οὐκ ἐξόν ἐστιν χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου οὔτε βαπτίζειν οὔτε ἀγάπην ποιεῖν· ἀλλ' ὃ ἂν ἐκεῖνος δοκιμάσῃ, τοῦτο καὶ τῷ θεῷ εὐάρεστον, ἵνα ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ καὶ βέβαιον πᾶν ὃ πράσσετε.

Common Translation found in Catholic catalogs:

2. b. where if φανῇ son Bishop, where the multitude ito, where if osper ῇ Jesus Christ, where the Catholic church. essential but do not speak telling the village nor bishop nor βαπτίζειν do in love; but he that if he δοκιμάσῃ, purpose and εὐάρεστον god, that he should last place of security and the utmost βέβαιον πράσσετε.

Common Translation found in Catholic catalogs:

2. c. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

We find the 'Google' translation sufficiently telling to surmise that the Catholic rendition is correct.

Every digital translator I run gives the same answer: “there is the Catholic Church”. The Introductory note to the Epistles of Ignatius (pages 45-46) of Philip Schaff's in “The Apostolic Fathers with Justin” represents schaff's own Protestant prejudices. They lean on a very controversial position to prove a point – in short it's easy to see he is supporting the Lutheran view; consequently it's my opinion that much scrutiny is warranted in his 'elucidations'. But, be that as it may; for the most part I've run across very few such controversies with Schaff's work; not that I'd know if they slapped me in the face.

But, being ignorant in ancient Greek (or any other Greek) I think I'll continue to keep my nose in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

JoeT

P.S. Did you know that the Catholic Church has a tradition that St. Ignatius was the child who was taken up in Christ's arms described in Mark 9:35.

[dwashbur]

I don’t do Greek, I can only relate to the Greek alphabet in form of various mathematical algorithms;

We're bookends, then; I do Greek quite well, but advanced math is way beyond my meager powers of comprehension.

Every digital translator I run gives the same answer: “there is the Catholic Church”. The Introductory note to the Epistles of Ignatius (pages 45-46) of Philip Schaff’s in “The Apostolic Fathers with Justin” represents schaff’s own Protestant prejudices. They lean on a very controversial position to prove a point – in short it’s easy to see he is supporting the Lutheran view; consequently it’s my opinion that much scrutiny is warranted in his ‘elucidations’. But, be that as it may; for the most part I’ve run across very few such controversies with Schaff’s work; not that I'd know if they slapped me in the face.

I can't seem to find the Schaff volume in Google books or ccel; do you have a link? What did he say?

But, being ignorant in ancient Greek (or any other Greek) I think I’ll continue to keep my nose in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Go for it; I just suggest some other stuff too ;)

P.S. Did you know that the Catholic Church has a tradition that St. Ignatius was the child who was taken up in Christ’s arms described in Mark 9:35.

I did not know that. Wouldn't that be something cool to take to your martyrdom??

[JoeT777]

I can't seem to find the Schaff volume in google books or ccel; do you have a link? What did he say?

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library