[talaniman]

All the dems are pretty good, but it's early still.

[jlisenbe]

All the dems are pretty good

They are all pretty good at proposing new spending plans with no idea of how to pay for it, including AOC's lunatic Green New Deal.

[tomder55]

She ex[licitly said she knows he isn't a racist,

and then went about trying to prove he was a racist ...absurd by any standard . There are many things about Joe that are fair game . But that is not one of them . Had Joe had half a wit (like he does on his good days ) he should've countered that he's such a racist that the 1st African American President chose him as VP for 2 terms .

[jlisenbe]

It's the default accusation now. Anyone with whom liberals disagree with eventually be found to be a racist.

[talaniman]

They are all pretty good at proposing new spending plans with no idea of how to pay for it, including AOC's lunatic Green New Deal.

You should research that a bit as they have the pay fors especially Warren.

and then went about trying to prove he was a racist ...absurd by any standard . There are many things about Joe that are fair game . But that is not one of them . Had Joe had half a wit (like he does on his good days ) he should've countered that he's such a racist that the 1st African American President chose him as VP for 2 terms .

I think it had more to do with states right and busing is not seen as a good thing among all minorities.

It's the default accusation now. Anyone with whom liberals disagree with eventually be found to be a racist.

Only if they are.

[jlisenbe]

You should research that a bit as they have the pay fors especially Warren.

No one has any idea at all of how to come up with 90 tril to pay for the Green New Deal. It's pure liberal lunacy.

[talaniman]

it's like the tax cuts that pays for itself. See conservatives have a lunacy too.

[tomder55]

forced busing was a terrible idea for many reasons and Joe was correct to oppose it . You know that is true because it is no longer practiced .As with most progressive policies the unintended consequences weren't considered .

[talaniman]

I actually agree with you and many did back then, but to be fair to Harris there was a small number that relished going to a "better" school. I was shocked Biden didn't see that coming. Maybe not from her, but he didn't look prepared and was he biting his tongue? I remember the good old boys running things too. I didn't consider it a gaff when he said he worked with segregationist, like he had a choice, but that states rights thing gave me the creeps. I still think though he is the guy with the chops. It's still early and he will regroup or he won't.

[tomder55]

but to be fair to Harris there was a small number that relished going to a "better" school

and that is why vouchers for parental school choice makes so much more sense .

but he didn't look prepared and was he biting his tongue

like me ,it was past his bed time .Biden on his best days is a bumbling contradiction . Over the course of his career he has staked out every position on almost every issue . You see they don't like being called 'flip floppers ' anymore . So they have invented a new phrase ;and Biden uses it a lot …….he's "evolved " .

and states rights is a misnomer . States DON'T have rights . People have rights . States have POWERS . I defy anyone to look at the Constitution and the Amendments and find a reference to "state's rights".

[jlisenbe]

and that is why vouchers for parental school choice makes so much more sense .

I would agree that parental choice makes a lot of sense and is a vote for liberty, but it comes with a load of problems, not the least of which is whether or not these private schools will have to comply with the boatload of state and federal regulations which apply to schools, and I do mean a boatload. It is ridiculous.

and states rights is a misnomer . States DON'T have rights . People have rights . States have POWERS . I defy anyone to look at the Constitution and the Amendments and find a reference to "state's rights".

The oft forgotten tenth amendment would be the answer to a lot of issues. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." But politicians crave power, and in particular the power to inflict their will on us. It is possible that all of this is going to end in an ugly manner one day. I hope not, but it's possible. There is developing such a wide divide between camps that it is hard to imagine how to continue to bridge it.

[talaniman]

Choice is great if you can get it, but one of my previous unanswered questions was what of those that don't get that choice? Too bad is not an answer. Unruled and unregulated private schools are not either. Nor is sucking the money from public schools and giving it to private for profit ones a great solution either. I think we start with our partisan state and local governments that SCOTUS won't touch and gives license to gerrymander the power and the money. I know both sides have done it longer than I can remember, and that has to stop and fair and balanced has to be the rule of the day.

Damn the political party bosses screwing things up. That's a corrupted system getting worse and it's no wonder it reflects on all we do. Can't build anything with rotted wood let alone a bridge.

[jlisenbe]

Choice is great if you can get it, but one of my previous unanswered questions was what of those that don't get that choice?

That is true of virtually every area of life. Not everyone can run in a race, but we don't stop having races for that reason. The answer to your question is to extend choice to as many people as possible and get past the unattainable idea that anything short of perfection is not acceptable. It will never be perfect, as nothing ever is. Virtually NO ONE other than people with enough money has choice now. Are you satisfied with that?

Unruled and unregulated private schools are not either. Nor is sucking the money from public schools and giving it to private for profit ones a great solution either.

We could start with allowing parents to send their children to a public school which is not in their district. That way the money still stays in the system. It sickens me to think how we have decided that the government gets to decide where a parent has to send his/her child. "Your child is in a terrible school? Tough. Suck it up and send them again tomorrow to virtually guaranteed failure."

I think we start with our partisan state and local governments that SCOTUS won't touch and gives license to gerrymander the power and the money.

Most of the illogical gerrymandering of school districts was done by federal courts in an effort to mandate racial integration. In my area, this was done in the 70's. The result was that parents who despised being dictated to by the feds simply moved and now live in school districts they prefer, so the schools have become less integrated over the past forty years. It's been a total disaster, and the result is that the city schools have gone to you know where in a hand-basket. The city has lost 10,000 in population and is now a shell of its former self. The county schools routinely have test scores which the city schools cannot come close to. Thanks, federal government with your "We know what's best for you," bureaucrats.

[tomder55]

vouchers give choice . Here in NY comrade Sandanista Bill's attack on charters hurts the parents who don't have the choices . Who said anything about unregulated schools . Private schools have to meet standards .Homeschoolers have to meet state standards .

Gerrymandering was correctly ruled by SCOTUS ;and that is coming from me ,who lost my favorite rep in my life due to Gerrymandering . Elections have consequences as the emperor said ,

[jlisenbe]

Who said anything about unregulated schools . Private schools have to meet standards .Homeschoolers have to meet state standards .

They have to meet some minimal standards, but not even close to what public schools have to meet. Standards for special education, for instance, basically do not apply to private schools and they are ridiculously burdensome. State testing regs do not apply. Teacher certification regs do not apply. Tests which must be passed for seniors to graduate do not apply. The list goes on and on. That is one reason many people in public education really resent vouchers since they allow private schools to compete on an unlevel playing ground.

[tomder55]

ah so it's a credentials thing. The students in the religious school my wife teaches take the state tests . She teaches special ed and answers to the local public schools system as well as the administrators of her school .Year after year she is subject to recertification and doesn't get a dime extra in compensation for the course work she is required to take . None of these courses or tests add anything to her abilities or skills . The equivalent would be if the state required you to take course work and road tests to renew your driver license . These money grabs by the states discourage skilled and experienced people in the private sector from becoming teachers .

[jlisenbe]

ah so it's a credentials thing. The students in the religious school my wife teaches take the state tests . She teaches special ed and answers to the local public schools system as well as the administrators of her school

Not familiar with your situation, but that I don't think that is the case in most states for private schools. It's not in ours.

Year after year she is subject to recertification and doesn't get a dime extra in compensation for the course work she is required to take .

Just like public school teachers. In our state you have to re-certify every five years, for which you get paid nothing.

None of these courses or tests add anything to her abilities or skills . The equivalent would be if the state required you to take course work and road tests to renew your driver license.

That was true of most of the coursework I took but not all. Some of them were useful.

These money grabs by the states discourage skilled and experienced people in the private sector from becoming teachers .

True, but probably not the biggest factor. Teaching school is the perfect mother's job. When the kids are home, the teacher is home. A lot of time off, and all things considered, pretty good pay. The biggest problem in our state is the perception (at least somewhat accurate) that teachers are subject to disrespect by students and parents, and sometimes severely so.

Privatizing schools would solve many of those problems. For instance, suppose you are an outstanding fifth year teacher. You work hard, your students do well on tests, and you're dependable. The teacher beside you does none of those things, but he/she gets paid the same money you get paid so long as their years of experience and level of education are the same.

[talaniman]

Hmm, that opens up the possibility of students being left behind, and teachers who cannot make that standard for private schools. Nobody has a clue about what happens to them or addressed the real killer of public schools and that's the high local costs of maintaning those old buildings and keeping the lights on. Let's not loose site of for profit private schools either and that's to make money.

[jlisenbe]

Hmm, that opens up the possibility of students being left behind, and teachers who cannot make that standard for private schools.

I laughed when I read that. Are you concerned about the millions of students being "left behind" in public schools? At any rate, if a student is not progressing well, the parent can move the child to another school, unlike now where students are trapped in low performing public schools.

Nobody has a clue about what happens to them or addressed the real killer of public schools and that's the high local costs of maintaning those old buildings and keeping the lights on.

Having spent 34 years in education, and having spoken with hundreds of other teachers and school admins, I will say with no hesitation that lack of funding is far, far away from being our biggest problem. We spend more money per student in the U.S. than any other country than Norway.

Let's not loose site of for profit private schools either and that's to make money.

Who cares if they make a profit or not? The primary thing is whether or not students are learning.

[talaniman]

I laughed when I read that. Are you concerned about the millions of students being "left behind" in public schools? At any rate, if a student is not progressing well, the parent can move the child to another school, unlike now where students are trapped in low performing public schools.

Don't laugh, because a good option is a tutor. Sometimes the student is the issue, not the school or teachers.

Having spent 34 years in education, and having spoken with hundreds of other teachers and school admins, I will say with no hesitation that lack of funding is far, far away from being our biggest problem. We spend more money per student in the U.S. than any other country than Norway.

That holds maybe for as a collective, but most are LOCAL issues overseen by a school board. Poorer communities less money for stuff. If we are spending so much on our schools, why are public school teachers buying supplies from their own pockets? Why do they need two jobs in some places if costs are not affecting local school budgets? Why are they cutting staff and programs they no longer can afford?

Who cares if they make a profit or not? The primary thing is whether or not students are learning.

The data countrywide is a mixed bag.

https://www.publicnewsservice.org/20...rming/a66703-1

While I respect your expertise I would prefer the data to anecdotes to bolster your argument. For one, profits do not appear from nowhere, and costs have been rising for years and as an administrator, that's something you should know just as a matter of budgets. Moreover, take from public and give it to private then a lot of people in public have less, despite your declaration that it is NOT the case.

It's one thing to tout what you think is a better way, and quite another to say it works for everyone. Obviously public schools are in need of inprovement, but local budgets have taken a beating and warehousing kids education for profit without the what you said accountability is asking for a big problem.

Some states are just not getting it as right as others, when it comes to school choice, private charter schools or cyber schools. Please show the evidence that choice works across the country. All my evidence that it doesn't is privacy protected so no links, but I did google the subject and it points to what I have outlined in the above paragraph. Still working on those links.