[talaniman]

There you go blithering again. Have you had your coffee this morning, or is it tea with your crumpet?

[paraclete]

No crumpet here, mate, just bacon, eggs and coffee and whole lot of cold. As I have said before global warming, what's that?

[tomder55]

The proof that Mueller has found absolutely nothing on Trump is that he’s still running around trying to find old dirt on Manafort, Flynn and Cohen to try to terrorize them into giving him something on Trump.

[talaniman]

That's the way CRIMNALS are prosecuted. Even if it's old dirt they got away with for YEARS... DECADES! The Dufus has enough lawsuits and charges to keep him and his lawyers busy until Mueller gets around to him. Surprised you defend these criminals who made their money with old dirt, and now they have to face a court of law. What you think they should NOT be prosecuted?

Wow, hope he has an indictment for Vlad by the time he gets here.

[Athos]

The proof that Mueller has found absolutely nothing on Trump is that he’s still running around trying to find old dirt on Manafort, Flynn and Cohen to try to terrorize them into giving him something on Trump.

It's more likely that Mueller wants to get as many of the crooks as he can before tackling Trump. Once he goes after Trump, all the crazies will come out of the woodwork - the lawyers, Giuliani, Kavanagh, etc., - and declare that Trump can't be touched since he's above the law. This will delay everything until Trump leaves office. The fact that this issue has been settled law for over a thousand years apparently means nothing to these guys.

Even Nixon was confused on this, declaring "If the president does it, it's not illegal". There is an argument to be made for that position in terms of immediate and vital national security, but never to protect suspected criminal behavior. Republican legal minds apparently were absent that day from law school.

[tomder55]

Here is the FISA application on Carter Page . The FBI released it to the NY Times and

not to the House that subpoenaed,nor to the Senate that subpoenaed it .

What it reveals is that all of it was based on the Steele dossier (aka Source 1 ) .

We still don't know who his sources were ,or if they even exist . .The FBI application also cited a Yahoo! article by Michael Isikoff that relied on tips from Steele.So bottom line is that the FBI used the ,paid for by Democrats dossier ….(

hired the Perkins law firm. The Perkins law firm hired Fusion GPS. Fusion GPS hired Christopher Steele...& then they hired Nelly Ohr, the wife of Bruce Ohr, to get the fake dossier from a political environment to the intel. community)… to spy on an opposition's campaign. This pretty much confirms the Nunes document of Jan 2018.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel.../optimized.pdf

“Source #1” alleged that during a trip to Moscow in July 2016, Page met secretly with two sanctioned Kremlin insiders, Igor Sechin and Igor Diveykin. The dossier also alleged that Page worked with Manafort to exchange information with Russian operatives. Page has vehemently denied the dossier’s allegations, and says he has never spoken to Manafort. He also says he has never met Sechin and Diveykin while denying that he is a Russian agent. FBI officials told Congress that investigators had not corroborated the dossier’s allegations when it was cited in the FISA applications. In between all the redaction we learn that the FBI makes clear that it believes the information had not been gathered for anything other than political purposes.“The FBI speculates that the identified U.S. person was likely looking for information that could be used to discredit Candidate #1’s (Trump)campaign,” but the FISA application states, as the FBI acknowledged that ‘notwithstanding’ the reasons for why the research was conducted, “the FBI believes Source #1’s reporting herein to be credible.”

The FISA application includes a note that Page wrote a letter to then-FBI Director James Comey denying any wrongdoing, and labeling the stories, ‘completely false media reports.’ Page of course had previously been used by the FBI as an informant

n the prosecution and conviction of Russian Buryakov.But now the allegation is that he was working with the Russians .

This document makes it appear the standard of probable cause required to spy on American citizens is so low as to be nonexistent.

[Athos]

Here is the FISA application on Carter Page . The FBI released it to the NY Times and

not to the House that subpoenaed,nor to the Senate that subpoenaed it .

It was obtained by the NY Times as a result of the Times filing a Freedom of Information Act.

What it reveals is that all of it was based on the Steele dossier

It reveals nothing of the sort. It was based on a number of sources including the Steele dossier.

The FBI application also cited a Yahoo! article by Michael Isikoff

The Nunes memo initiated the use of the Yahoo article. The Democrats REBUTTED his citation.

bottom line is that the FBI used the ,paid for by Democrats dossier ….The Perkins law firm hired Fusion GPS. Fusion GPS hired Christopher Steele..

The bottom line is that the opposition research that began all this was started by a CONSERVATIVE group trying to get info AGAINST Trump. When Trump won the nomination, only then did they contact the Democrats.[/QUOTE]

...& then they hired Nelly Ohr, the wife of Bruce Ohr, to get the fake dossier.

Not fake. To date, the consensus among the intelligence communities is that nothing so far in the dossier has been DISPROVEN.

This pretty much confirms the Nunes document of Jan 2018.

This is the biggest fib of all. Most objective observers are saying Nunes should be fired for producing such a demonstrably false memo in January 2018.


Here's a link for those interested in further details. It contains all necessary links.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/u...av=bottom-well

[tomder55]

It was obtained by the NY Times as a result of the Times filing a Freedom of Information Act

. Judicial Watch has scores of FISA requests that are being slow walked or ignored . I'd imagine an Congressional subpoena carries more weight than a FISA application.

It reveals nothing of the sort. It was based on a number of sources including the Steele dossier

Nothing of the sort. Every other source is an alleged source Steele cited except for the Yahoo news article that relied on Steele's leaks to the reporter .

The bottom line is that the opposition research that began all this was started by a CONSERVATIVE group trying to get info AGAINST Trump. When Trump won the nomination, only then did they contact the Democrats

It is true that the Washington Free Beacon initially hired Steele .BUT he did not begin the project that resulted in the dossier until after the Democrat campaign funded it .

Not fake. To date, the consensus among the intelligence communities is that nothing so far in the dossier has been DISPROVEN.

and there is the new standard of justice . Allegations made have to be disproved by the accused instead of the accuser proving the accusations .

This pretty much confirms the Nunes document of Jan 2018.


This is the biggest fib of all. Most objective observers are saying Nunes should be fired for producing such a demonstrably false memo in January 2018.


Here's a link for those interested in further details. It contains all necessary links.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/u...av=bottom-well

The memo states, “The Carter Page FISA application also cited extensively a September 23, 2016 Yahoo News article by Michael Isikoff, which focuses on Page’s July 2016 trip to Moscow,” “This article does not corroborate the Steele dossier because it is derived from information leaked by Steele himself to Yahoo News.” That is totally true and confirmed with the release of the applications.

[talaniman]

So you are saying that Carter Page is just an innocent citizen unfairly picked on by the Big Bad Government just because he talked to some Russians?

I think he is a useful idiot to Vlad and his boys that bears watching myself.

[tomder55]

All these people indicted by Mueller and he hasn't gotten around to indicting the 1st person that they got a warrant to snoop on . Maybe Page was another FBI plant ? They had used him before in a major investigation against Russia.

[Athos]

Judicial Watch has scores of FISA requests that are being slow walked or ignored .

Judicial Watch is a right-wing activist group claiming, among other absurdities, that climate science is "false science", and it's no wonder "scores of its requests have been slow walked or ignored", since the vast majority of its requests have been outright dismissed!

I'd imagine an Congressional subpoena carries more weight than a FISA application.

The FISA court is comprised of four judges, EACH ONE appointed by Republican presidents.

Every other source is an alleged source Steele cited

Carter Page was known to be a Russian target in 2013 well BEFORE Steele entered the picture.

It is true that the Washington Free Beacon initially hired Steele .BUT he did not begin the project that resulted in the dossier until after the Democrat campaign funded it.

Equally true that the DNC, while funding it, was not aware of the details of Steele's investigation nor, I believe, Steele himself as they were working through a middle-man law firm.

and there is the new standard of justice . Allegations made have to be disproved by the accused instead of the accuser proving the accusations.

Not true. The justice system requires allegations and indictments to be proven in a court of law by the accuser.

The memo states, “The Carter Page FISA application also cited extensively a September 23, 2016 Yahoo News article by Michael Isikoff, which focuses on Page’s July 2016 trip to Moscow,” “This article does not corroborate the Steele dossier because it is derived from information leaked by Steele himself to Yahoo News.” That is totally true and confirmed with the release of the applications.

TOTALLY NOT TRUE! The FBI cited the article in a footnote only to show Page denied the allegations.

[tomder55]

Carter Page was recruited by the FBI to be an undercover informant, who testified against 2 Russian spies, and helped get them convicted. Here is the survaillance you speak of .

In 2013, a Russian national working as an unregistered foreign agent at a Russian bank in Manhattan sought information from Page, a longtime energy consultant, related to U.S. efforts to develop alternative energy resources, according to court papers filed by the FBI. Although Page thought the man was a legitimate banker after meeting him at an energy symposium in New York City, he was a Russian agent under federal investigation. He was later caught on surveillance dismissing Page as an “idiot.” The FBI informed Page in 2013 that the Russians might be trying to recruit him.

A U.S. Naval Academy alumnus, Page cooperated as a witness in that case, which was coordinated with the bureau’s Counterespionage Section Chief Peter Strzok in Washington, and he helped the government convict the Russian spy. Evgeny Buryakov pleaded guilty to espionage-related charges on March 11, 2016. FBI agents, as well as federal prosecutors, huddled with Page around that time to tie up loose ends, he said. “It had absolutely nothing to do with the election interference story, which surfaced months later,” Page said. Court records appear to back him up. Buryakov was sentenced in May 2016 and deported to Russia early last year. Schiff maintains that Page "remained on the radar of Russian intelligence and the FBI” due to the prior case, which gave them grounds to spy on him “independent" of the dossier.
“In order to understand the context in which the FBI sought a FISA warrant for Carter Page, it is necessary to understand … what the FBI knew about Page prior to making application to the court — including Page’s previous interaction with Russian intelligence operatives,” the Schiff minority memo said.
The Democrat narrative, which hinges on the suggestion that the bureau interviewed Page because of his role in Trump's campaign, is also challenged by the fact that the meeting took place several days before Trump publicly named Page as an adviser, on March 21, 2016.
Records indicate the FBI never viewed him as a potential foreign intelligence agent for Moscow. Court documents also show that Page fully cooperated with the FBI as soon as he learned he had been duped by Russian agents. In his sworn 2015 complaint against Buryakov, FBI special agent Gregory Monaghan portrays Page — referring to him as "Male-1” -- as a guileless victim, and described how Buryakov and other Russian agents tried to take advantage of the American businessman, who was unaware he was dealing with foreign spies.
The FBI agent further attested that the Russians never told Page they were “connected to the Russian government,” and that Page was only “interested in business opportunities in Russia,” where he had worked for years for Merrill Lynch and as an independent energy consultant.
In the end, the Russians were unable to recruit Page and never received any state secrets from him. Monaghan did not recommend espionage or any other charges against Page, who by all accounts acted as a reliable and trusted witness in the case. Far from being a Russian spy, Page was characterized to the court as someone who helped the FBI catch Russian spies.
But the government’s attitude toward Page turned cold after Trump publicly announced his name along with other members of his foreign policy team. Only then was Page treated as a possible national security threat. Not long after Trump’s March 21, 2016, announcement, FBI Director James Comey and his deputy, Andrew McCabe, held a meeting with Attorney General Loretta Lynch to discuss the news of Page joining the Trump campaign and how he may be “compromised” by the Russians, according to a recently declassified memo.
Then, sometime in the “late spring” of 2016, Comey held an unusual briefing concerning Page, and the alleged risk he posed, with the Obama administration’s highest-ranking national-security officials, who, in addition to Lynch, included National Security Adviser Susan Rice, CIA Director John Brennan, and National Intelligence Director James Clapper.
By autumn, in the heat of the presidential election campaign, the FBI had Page under constant surveillance, vacuuming up all his text messages and emails and listening in on his phone calls, including communications with Trump officials. The surveillance was predicated chiefly on an unverified allegation in the dossier, quoting third-hand sources claiming that Page traveled to Moscow in July 2016 to hatch an election plot with Kremlin officials.
Page has denied under oath ever meeting with the two Kremlin officials named in the dossier, and says he was in Moscow at the time to give a commencement address at a university, the New Economic School, where President Obama had previously spoken. The charge, attributed to anonymous sources, was written in the dossier by ex-British intelligence officer Steele, who was paid $168,000 by the Clinton camp to gather derogatory information on Trump from Russian sources.

After the still-unsubstantiated rumor was leaked to the press in September 2016, along with reports the FBI was taking it seriously, Page wrote a letter to Comey complaining he was the subject of a “witch hunt” and demanding he “look into this matter.”
He also volunteered to meet with FBI agents to put the rumors to rest.
“Although I have not been contacted by any member of your team in recent months, I would eagerly await their call to discuss any final questions they might possibly have in the interest of helping them put these outrageous allegations to rest,” Page wrote. Comey never responded to his Sept. 25, 2016, letter.
“I didn’t hear from the FBI again until over five months later, in March 2017 — after the FISA warrant application and first renewal had already been submitted,” he said. He said the “dodgy dossier was the foundation of their questions.” Page noted that the FBI agents who contacted him then were not the same ones he worked with earlier on the Buryakov case.
In April 2017, as the Justice Department was renewing its FISA warrant on Page for a second time, it publicly identified Page as the anonymous witness in the 2013-2015 Russian case involving Buryakov.
“On April 3, 2017,” Page said, “reporters at ABC News and BuzzFeed requested to meet in order to inform me that U.S. government operatives had unlawfully disclosed my identity as Male-1 in this 2015 case.”
The media leak came just weeks after Bharara, an Obama appointee, was fired by Attorney General Jeff Sessions. Bharara, who formerly served as Democratic Sen. Chuck Schumer’s aide, could not be reached for comment.
As surveillance warrants on Page continued to be renewed, the FBI also shadowed him using a confidential human source. The informant, Stefan Halper – who reportedly reached out to other Trump campaign figures including George Papadopoulos and Sam Clovis -- befriended Page. They struck up a relationship that lasted, Page said, until September 2017 -- the same month the fourth and final FISA spy warrant against the former Trump aide expired.
In their rebuttal, Democrats stated that the FBI and Justice Department “cited multiple sources to support the case for surveilling Page.” It’s not immediately clear if Halper is named in any of the four FISA warrant applications submitted on Page. The documents remain classified.
Page disagrees. “There was no basis for their FISA warrants,” he asserted, adding that the Obama Justice Department “abused” its authority to obtain such warrants, which are the most intrusive means of collecting information on U.S. citizens.
Schiff’s office said it would have no comment beyond the House minority memo defending the monitoring of Page.
Some former federal prosecutors and FBI investigators who have worked counterintelligence cases say Page has a valid grievance. They argue that the FISA warrants lacked the requisite "probable cause" to spy on an American citizen like Page, which requires the Justice Department to not only show the citizen is knowingly engaging in clandestine activities on behalf of a foreign power, but it must also demonstrate probable cause that such activities involve a violation of federal criminal law.
Page filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the Justice Department on May 21, 2017 seeking the FISA applications and "all information gathered pursuant to the warrants” authorizing his electronic surveillance issued by the FISA court, as well as the warrants themselves. He also seeks all communications between Justice Department officials and employees of the Clinton campaign related to him.
He says he has received no relevant documents in the year since he sent the FOIA request by certified mail.
Page can only speculate about how political forces seem to have transformed him from a cooperating witness into a possible Russian spy. But he says he is firmly convinced that “until DOJ discloses full information about the dodgy dossier, amends their court filings that led to extensive abuse of process, and discloses details on the other sources of their lies, it will be impossible for Americans to fully trust them again."

https://www.realclearinvestigations....nor_scout.html

[talaniman]

Carter Page obviously has gone well beyond being OUR useful idiot and wanted to capitalize on being a Russian useful idiot.

[tomder55]

seriously ? He was the 1st one they were watching and no charges yet .



https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...rts-nunes-memo

[paraclete]

Why do you take any of this seriously

[Athos]

Why do you take any of this seriously

Because we love our country and the ideals she stands for.

[tomder55]

there are plenty of serious issues here ;and some over the top rhetoric like using the word (s) treason or treasonous .

[paraclete]

Because we love our country and the ideals she stands for.

What ideals are those? Not the ideals that it stood for in WWII, no, those ideals are old fashioned in the era of self first, now the ideal is America first, whatever it takes to make America great again, and how can we beggar our neighbours today

[Athos]

What ideals are those? Not the ideals that it stood for in WWII, no, those ideals are old fashioned in the era of self first, now the ideal is America first, whatever it takes to make America great again, and how can we beggar our neighbours today

The ideals you quoted are not the ideals of America - never have been. They are the ideals of a man who idolizes money and power - an aberration in the Land of Lincoln and Washington. America's greatness is in its future - always will be. As Great Powers go, America has been a good friend. Far better than any other historical Great Power.

[talaniman]

Why do you take any of this seriously

We are watching history and many landmarks are being made now, so commentary is a natural thing either for or against because the rule of law is being defended in the courts where it should be. One could ask what your problem is as you attempt to sling mud from your freaking island way over there. Like you The Dufus cares not for the land or the people that made him PHAT.

seriously ? He was the 1st one they were watching and no charges yet .

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...rts-nunes-memo

The keyword is YET! I highly suggest you read the documents for yourself and know what that loony right winger has left out.

https://www.scribd.com/document/3844...rter-Page-Fisa

A word about Manafort here. Among his charges after he left the Dufus campaign. 2016-2017 defrauding a bank in Chicago for 16 million bucks.