[sndbay]

There are 3 verses in scripture that speak of God as the consuming fire. Each time refer. God's anger being pushed by the ignorance of man.

The first Deu 9:3 is the tribe of Anakins which were known as the tribe of "Giants" those born of woman by the falling angels = sons of god.
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

God was brought to show His anger upon them, and did away with those Anakins that were with the children of Israel.

Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God [is] he which goeth over before thee; [as] a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Jos 11:22 There was none of the Anakims left in the land of the children of Israel: only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, there remained.

2. The second time again God finds evil being done, and He again is refer as the consuming fire in Due 4:24

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu 4:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt [yourselves], and make a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

3. The third time is a warning us not to anger God, but to serve Him with love, as He love us.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

So heed the warning God is a consuming fire. And God hates lies.

There is no 2nd Saviour in scripture.. no church should claim differently.

Christ is our Saviour

[rhadsen]

Scott,

That’s not what I asked. I asked:

A) Now are these verses supporting purgatory directly, or do they have to be interpreted "allegorically" to see purgatory in them?

I did not ask if Bible verses had to be interpreted. Please answer the question above.

I also asked:

B) Is it fair to say that you are admitting that not only is the word "purgatory" not in the Bible, but also that those verses which you believe support the notion of purgatory must be interpreted "allegorically" in order to do so?

You answered:

Certainly, just like many of the core teachings of our faith such as the Trinity....

Once again, you are not answering the question that I asked. Secondly, I don’t have to interpret texts that support the Trinity in an “allegorical” fashion to defend the view that the Trinity is a Biblical idea. However, it appears that you have to interpret the texts that you claim support the notion of purgatory in an “allegorical” fashion to make them fit any notion of purgatory. See the difference? Could you please answer the question?

You also may have missed my earlier question:

Scott,

What I'm objecting to is that you say this verse is speaking of purgatory, but to make it say that, you have to rip it from its historical and literary context and interpret it "allegorically." I'm sure that I'm going to sound cynical, but going the allegorical route sounds pretty convenient for you. I know that sounds rude, but that is the only way that I can think to say it. I do apologize if I offend you by saying that.

Having said the above however, doesn't it bother you Scott that the two texts that the Catholic Catechism refers to in the section dealing with purgatory (1030 and 1031 if I recall correctly footnote #607) which one would imagine would be the clearest Biblical texts available, have to be interpreted allegorically to make them support purgatory as defined by that same church?

What clues from the text of 1 Peter 1:7 determine that Peter is speaking to us allegorically? How do we know that he isn't speaking allegorically in 1 Peter 1:14, or 1 Peter 2:11?

As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. (1 Peter 1:14)

Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. (1 Peter 2:11)

Rob

[ScottRC]

Once again, you are not answering the question that I asked.

I'll try again...

Yes.

Secondly, I don't have to interpret texts that support the Trinity in an “allegorical” fashion to defend the view that the Trinity is a Biblical idea.

That's certainly a matter of opinion...

You also may have missed my earlier question:
What clues from the text of 1 Peter 1:7 determine that Peter is speaking to us allegorically? How do we know that he isn't speaking allegorically in 1 Peter 1:14, or 1 Peter 2:11?

Already answered.

Peace be with you.

[ScottRC]

Hi rob... I pray you are well... now that I have a few minutes, I'd like to respond a bit more to your post:

What I'm objecting to is that you say this verse is speaking of purgatory, but to make it say that, you have to rip it from its historical and literary context and interpret it "allegorically." I'm sure that I'm going to sound cynical, but going the allegorical route sounds pretty convenient for you. I know that sounds rude, but that is the only way that I can think to say it. I do apologize if I offend you by saying that.

Well, to be clear... I don't believe I EVER stated that the verse in question is "speaking of purgatory" or that it was a "literal proof-text for purgatory"... or ANYTHING of the kind.

I actually went out of my way to try to explain Catholic (and Orthodox FYI) theology and the fact that (unlike modern Protestant exegesis) we don't need a literal Bible verse to determine divine revelation.

And I don't think it's rude at all... just a bit unfair... but maybe you do take the Bible 100% literal, otherwise I think we'd both have to admit that our respective theologies use the "sense" of Scripture that best suits what it believes to be the truth. For instance, we take verses in John about the body and blood of Christ as LITERAL... while most outside the historical Christian Churches do not... so I don't think it will serve you well to go down this road... and since I offered DOZENS of other Bible verses as what I believe is support for this doctrine, I could simply retract 1 Pet from the conversation and be no worse for the wear... know what I mean?

Having said the above however, doesn't it bother you Scott that the two texts that the Catholic Catechism refers to in the section dealing with purgatory (1030 and 1031 if I recall correctly footnote #607) which one would imagine would be the clearest Biblical texts available, have to be interpreted allegorically to make them support purgatory as defined by that same church?

No, it does not bother me at all... because (for the third time) Catholic theology does not rely on Scripture alone to determine orthodoxy, but both Scripture AND Tradition... and like my earlier post should make clear: since the early church, purgatory was a concept that was considered to be authentic Christian teaching.

And if you look again at the footnotes for this teaching, I'm sure you remember #606= Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.

Council of Lyons II (1274)
We believe... that the souls, by the purifying compensation are purged after death.
Council of Florence
Repeated the Council of Lyons II.
Council of Trent (1545-1563)
We constantly hold that purgatory exists, and that the souls of the faithful there detained are helped by the prayers of the faithful.

One of the main reasons the Protestant reformers removed books from the Bible is that the doctrine of Purgatory is quite evident in one:
2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

In conclusion, the constant faith of the Church affirms the belief in purgatory... from the Bible and from the earliest of times, the Fathers of the Church taught the existence of purgatory: Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220?), Origen (Alexandria, 185 - 254?), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258), Ambrose (Tier, 340 - 397), Augustine (Numidia, 354 - 430), Basil (Caesarea, 329 - 379), Gregory of Nazianzus (in Cappadocia, 329 - 389), John Chrysostom (Antioch, 349 - 407), Gregory the Great (Rome, 540 - 604), and many others.

And my personal belief is that I'd rather look to the 2,000 years of Christian teaching to determine orthodoxy, rather than my PERSONAL interpretation of Scripture... but I respect your right to search for the truth in the way your conscience leads you.

God bless.

[cozyk]

WOW!! Reading the previous post about whose interpretation is the RIGHT interpretation is exactly what is wrong with putting SO MUCH store in the bible. Why not just live your best life to honor the god you believe in. What difference does it make if there is a purgatory? Is it going to change the way you lead your life? None of us KNOW exactly what will happen
When we die. And what we think we know depends on interpretation. Religion has been the cause of wars throughout time and in reading some of these post, it shows why.

[arcura]

Tj3,
It seem to be useless to discuss the existence of Purgatory here.
Those who believe in it do so firmly, the same for those who do not believe.
The bible verses used in the discussion are interpreted differently by both sides.
In my case I know Purgatory exists.
I also know that the day will come when you will also.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Well, to be clear... I don't believe I EVER stated that the verse in question is "speaking of purgatory" or that it was a "literal proof-text for purgatory"... or ANYTHING of the kind.

I actually went out of my way to try to explain Catholic (and Orthodox FYI) theology and the fact that (unlike modern Protestant exegesis) we don't need a literal Bible verse to determine divine revelation.

The problem is that there is no scripture which speaks of purgatory. I note however that you have conceded that Cathoplic and Orthodox theology is not based on the Bible.

One of the main reasons the Protestant reformers removed books from the Bible

Why do you keep repeating this false statement? As I pointed out, even the New Catholic encyclopedia disagrees with you. The Roman Catholic Church added books at the council of Trent.

2 Maccabees 12:42-46

You do know that even internal evidence to the Maccabees says that it is not inspired text, don't you?

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

Clearly even the writer of Maccabees cl;aimed that the source was him alone and not the Holy Spirit. Therefore to base doctrine on this book, or to claim that it is canonical is to based doctrine on the fallible words and beliefs of a man.

In conclusion, the constant faith of the Church affirms the belief in purgatory... from the Bible and from the earliest of times, the Fathers of the Church taught the existence of purgatory: Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220?), Origen (Alexandria, 185 - 254?), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258), Ambrose (Tier, 340 - 397), Augustine (Numidia, 354 - 430), Basil (Caesarea, 329 - 379), Gregory of Nazianzus (in Cappadocia, 329 - 389), John Chrysostom (Antioch, 349 - 407), Gregory the Great (Rome, 540 - 604), and many others.

And once again, you use men for your doctrinal basis, at least one of which was declared a heretic in his own time.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
It seem to be useless to discuss the existence of Purgatory here.
Those who believe in it do so firmly, the same for those who do not believe.
The bible verses used in the discussion are interpreted differently by both sides.

Right - one side lets the Bible speak for itself, the other side lets men in their church interpret ti for them. There is no chance of coming to terms as long as we have a different basis for doctrine.

[arcura]

Tj3,
You say that there is no Scripture that speaks of Purgatory.
I say there is and provided them.
I say there is no Scripture passages that speak of the rapture.
You say there is.
So it goes.
I hope you get mu point.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

WOW!! Reading the previous post about whose interpretation is the RIGHT interpretation is exactly what is wrong with putting SO MUCH store in the bible. Why not just live your best life to honor the god you believe in.

Scripture warns about men doing only what they think is right.

Deut 12:7-9
8 You shall not at all do as we are doing here today--every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes--
NKJV

What difference does it make if there is a purgatory?

Huge difference. If purgatory exists, then it is a different gospel, a gospel that requires men to do something to merit payment of their own sins, something scripture says is not possible. Indeed, it become a different gospel and scripture has very strong words about messing around with the gospel:

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

Is it going to change the way you lead your life? None of us KNOW exactly what will happen

If you follow a different gospel, it affects your relationship with God.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
You say that there is no Scripture that speaks of Purgatory.
I say there is and provided them.
I say there is no Scripture passages that speak of the rapture.
You say there is.
So it goes.
I hope you get mu point.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I get your point - you follow your denomination's teachings, and I follow the Bible. When I have a few minutes, I will post once again a rebuttal to your copy and past of that website.

[ScottRC]

You say that there is no Scripture that speaks of Purgatory.
I say there is and provided them.
I say there is no Scripture passages that speak of the rapture.
You say there is.
So it goes.
I hope you get mu point.

Good point Fred... it seems that some don't see that without an authority to decide what is orthodox and what is not, all we would have is a history of these kinds of arguments and no Bible. There would be BILLIONS of different "gospels", each based upon the individual readers personal opinons... hardly seems like God would send His Son to die and then leave no way to determine the TRUTH.

[Tj3]

Good point Fred... it seems that some don't see that without an authority to decide what is orthodox and what is not, all we would have is a history of these kinds of arguments and no Bible.

The difference is that our authority is what god commanded - God's word, the Bible.

Your authority is the opinion and interpretations of men.

Read what God has to say about this:

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV

[Tj3]

How many times must I post these bible passages that indicate that Purgatory exists?
Please look them up and ponder them.

0kay Fred, here we go. Rebuttals once again to these references that you copied and pasted off someone else's site (without credit, I note!)

Lk 12:59

Let's look at the context:

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

1 Pet 1:7

1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.

Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom. Note that the suffering referred to here was in the flesh, not after death.

Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Col 1:24

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

First, this is an entirely different topic and has zero to do with purgatory. Second, we cannot take scripture out of context.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

There is one sins for which we need not pray because the is no forgiveness.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

[arcura]

Tj3,
What make you think that because Purgatory exist there is a different gospel?
It's the same Jesus Christ and what He did for us.
Without Purgatory to cleans souls of their sinful nature very few would get to heaven, only those who had no stain of sinful nature.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
What make you think that because Purgatory exist there is a different gospel?
It's the same Jesus Christ and what He did for us.
Without Purgatory to cleans souls of their sinful nature very few would get to heaven, only those who had no stain of sinful nature.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You have nicely explained why it is a different gospel. You have said that it affects who gets to heaven - that is exactly what the gospel is. You are saying that purgatory is a necessary step to get to heaven, to cleanse our souls, but the Biblical gospel says that Jesus cleansed our souls, not purgatory:

1 John 1:7-10
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Nothing about purgatory.

And as shown below (message #334), you have not provided us with a single reference where scripture speaks of purgatory.

[Tj3]

Good point Fred... it seems that some don't see that without an authority to decide what is orthodox and what is not, all we would have is a history of these kinds of arguments and no Bible.

That is why He (not your denomination) gave us scripture:

2 Tim 3:14-16
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

There would be BILLIONS of different "gospels", each based upon the individual readers personal opinons... hardly seems like God would send His Son to die and then leave no way to determine the TRUTH.

That is why we are to use scripture to interpret truth for us:

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

As the Bereans did:

Acts 17:10-12
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
NKJV

And not have men interpret it for us:

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
NKJV

NKJV

[Lilmkiss]

Wondergirl,
Please note that that was address ti Tj3 who is Tom Smith whose many negative posts and teachings about the Catholic Church show that he hates many of The Churches teachings.
And I beg to differ about the bible's indication that Purgatory does exist.
Several verses so indicate.
Yes the word Purgatory is not in the bible.
If you take the stand that Purgatory does not exist then there are thousands of words that are not in the bible and therefore do not exist.
Note that the word :"Wondergirl" is not in the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

And Jesus said " I am the WAY! the TRUTH! and the LIFE! NO one comes to the Father but through ME!"

So if you are truly a Christian then this very verse disproves the idea of us working to heven or others good works bringing them to heven simply because there is no other way to God but through what Jesus did end of story people Purgatory does not exist.

Note: the gramer isn't right but I put it in there to make a point:)
This is what Jesus himself said and if we need Purgatory then that means Jesus lied so my question to you is Did Jesus lie?

[Lilmkiss]

Tj3,
What make you think that because Purgatory exist there is a different gospel?
It's the same Jesus Christ and what He did for us.
Without Purgatory to cleans souls of their sinful nature very few would get to heaven, only those who had no stain of sinful nature.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And this my friend is why Jesus died on the cross so that our sins would be washed away in the blood of his son (the very base that sets christianity apart from other faith's that we are saved my grace not by works. If you do not believe this I can give you like hundreds of verses new and old testemnt to back this up.

[arcura]

Lilmkiss
Yes, Jesus is the way the truth and the life and the gospels tell us hiw we are to take advantage of that.
That is my being and DOING the things that Jesus and His apostles and His Church tell us to be and do.
It's all in the book The Church via the Holy Spirit gave us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred