[ETWolverine]

Once again--who is John Galt?

Is that a serious question or just a reference?

Good reference, though.

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

I'm sorry. I missed 'em. Please re-direct me.

excon

Right here. I don't need an English lesson either.

Exit question: what do YOU think he means when he says he wants to bring about "fundamental change" in this country?

[Synnen]

Is that a serious question or just a reference?

Good reference, though.

Reference--sorry, should have used quotes.

[speechlesstx]

This is the second story on this trend I've reported here.

In Canada, a move toward a private healthcare option

In British Columbia, private clinics and surgical centers are capitalizing on patients who might otherwise pay for faster treatment in the U.S. The courts will consider their legality next month.

By Kim Murphy
September 27, 2009

Reporting from Vancouver, Canada - When the pain in Christina Woodkey's legs became so severe that she could no long hike or cross-country ski, she went to her local health clinic. The Calgary, Canada, resident was told she'd need to see a hip specialist. Because the problem was not life-threatening, however, she'd have to wait about a year.

So wait she did.

In January, the hip doctor told her that a narrowing of the spine was compressing her nerves and causing the pain. She needed a back specialist. The appointment was set for Sept. 30. "When I was given that date, I asked when could I expect to have surgery," said Woodkey, 72. "They said it would be a year and a half after I had seen this doctor."

So this month, she drove across the border into Montana and got the $50,000 surgery done in two days.

"I don't have insurance. We're not allowed to have private health insurance in Canada," Woodkey said. "It's not going to be easy to come up with the money. But I'm happy to say the pain is almost all gone."

Whereas U.S. healthcare is predominantly a private system paid for by private insurers, things in Canada tend toward the other end of the spectrum: A universal, government-funded health system is only beginning to flirt with private-sector medicine.

Hoping to capitalize on patients who might otherwise go to the U.S. for speedier care, a network of technically illegal private clinics and surgical centers has sprung up in British Columbia, echoing a trend in Quebec. In October, the courts will be asked to decide whether the budding system should be sanctioned.

More than 70 private health providers in British Columbia now schedule simple surgeries and tests such as MRIs with waits as short as a week or two, compared with the months it takes for a public surgical suite to become available for nonessential operations.

"What we have in Canada is access to a government, state-mandated wait list," said Brian Day, a former Canadian Medical Assn. director who runs a private surgical center in Vancouver. "You cannot force a citizen in a free and democratic society to simply wait for healthcare, and outlaw their ability to extricate themselves from a wait list."

Yet the move into privatized care threatens to make the delays -- already long from the perennial shortage of doctors and rationing of facilities -- even longer, public healthcare advocates say. There will be fewer skilled healthcare workers in government hospitals as doctors and nurses are lured into better-paying private jobs, they say.

Fire away, let's hear the latest defense of Canada's model health care system.

[tomder55]

Technically illegal private clinics and surgical centers

Oh them illegal back ally clinics. Sounds like the abortion debate .

[asking]

The Canadians I know are happy with it. I've certainly had some long waits under the US system. Despite severe back pain, I was not treated for 6 months, mostly because of intense bureaucratic stuff that I had to deal with while in pain. I don't know of any reputable back surgeon around here who could schedule a $50,000 surgery in two weeks.

But consider France. There's no reason to limit ourselves to Canada.

The French Lesson In Health Care

Michael Moore's documentary Sicko trumpets France as one of the most effective providers of universal health care. His conclusions and fist-in-your-gut approach may drive some Americans up the wall. But whatever you think of Moore, the French system—a complex mix of private and public financing—offers valuable lessons for would-be health-care reformers in the U.S.

In Sicko, Moore lumps France in with the socialized systems of Britain, Canada, and Cuba. In fact, the French system is similar enough to the U.S. model that reforms based on France's experience might work in America. The French can choose their doctors and see any specialist they want. Doctors in France, many of whom are self- employed, are free to prescribe any care they deem medically necessary. "The French approach suggests it is possible to solve the problem of financing universal coverage... [without] reorganizing the entire system," says Victor G. Rodwin, professor of health policy and management at New York University.

I'm not going to post the whole story because that would be a violation of copyright law.

[excon]

Hello:

What I want to know, at THIS point in time, is Obama going to fight for the public option or is he going to cave to the insurance lobby?

His decision, in my view, will be the turning point in his administration. Indeed, I think it will be a turning point in American politics for a LONG time to come.

Now, I don't know WHICH side has the most votes, gall, constituents, money, patriotism, confidence, or any of those things. I just know that whichever side wins, will win BIG.

I said it before, and I'm going to say it again. If Obama is defeated at, yes HIS Waterloo, then Sarah Palin will be our next president, and guys like 450 and the Wolverine will be appointed to government. Scary thought..

If Obama WINS, the right wing, of the right wing will fall off a cliff, never to return as the country rights itself - or maybe that's DE-rights itself.

excon

[speechlesstx]

The Canadians I know are happy with it. I've certainly had some long waits under the US system. Despite severe back pain, I was not treated for 6 months, mostly because of intense bureaucratic stuff that I had to deal with while in pain. I don't know of any reputable back surgeon around here who could schedule a $50,000 surgery in two weeks.

Yes, they say they're happy, just like NK does, but this is the second Canadian province reported to have a surge in private clinics. The facts speak for themselves.

But consider France. There's no reason to limit ourselves to Canada.

These Democrats aren't interested in modeling themselves after anyone, they're hellbent on reorganizing the entire system.

[tomder55]

is Obama going to fight for the public option or is he going to cave to the insurance lobby?

He's more concerned about securing the Olympics for Chi-town... another exercise in vanity . If you listen to his pitch to the CBC this week he gave the same boilerplate address of generalities without mentioning the "public option" at all . Does that mean that he has no clear position on it ? Not at all. He is firmly in favor of socialized medicine . However ;much like his previous legislative history.. and his delaying action in Afghanistan , he is voting absent and allowing the Pelosi's of the world to do the dirty work.

[speechlesstx]

I said it before, and I'm going to say it again. If Obama is defeated at, yes HIS Waterloo, then Sarah Palin will be our next president, and guys like 450 and the Wolverine will be appointed to government. Scary thought..

If Obama WINS, the right wing, of the right wing will fall off a cliff, never to return as the country rights itself - or maybe that's DE-rights itself.

We have more pressing concerns than Palin as president, like a military dictatorship right here in the good 'ol USA according to Gore Vidal.

US under Obama could slide into military dictatorship, says Gore Vidal

[Synnen]

A dictatorship here at home is EXACTLY what economists want to happen, actually.

But it won't, for 2 reasons:

1. There is a HUGE difference between a socialist (which I would name Obama) and a dictator (just ask Argentina or Russian or Chile).
2. The middle class wouldn't stand for it.

[excon]

Hello again:

We can sit here all day and talk about what the screaming mimi's said, but I'd rather talk about the REAL WORLD.

excon

[ETWolverine]

A dictatorship here at home is EXACTLY what economists want to happen, actually.

But it won't, for 2 reasons:

1. There is a HUGE difference between a socialist (which I would name Obama) and a dictator (just ask Argentina or Russian or Chile).
2. The middle class wouldn't stand for it.

1. I agree that Obama is not a dictator in the traditional sense. He is not capable of pushing a "hard tyranny". But he is definitely trying to push a "SOFT tyranny". And that would make him a "soft dictator". Who other than a dictator is capable of firing heads of private companies and replacing him with his own guy? Who other than a dictator is capable of limiting compensation paid by companies in violation of contract law? Who other than a dictator is capable of changing bankruptcy laws at whim to protect unions and hurt legal creditors... again in violation of contract law and bankruptcy law? All of these things have been done by Obama. Are they not the actions of a dictator... changing the rules at whim to favor his political agenda? Although Obama has not acted VIOLENTLY like many dictators do, what makes his actions any different from those of any other dictator? A non-violent dictator is still a dictator, Synnen.

2. How would the Middle Class stop it?

Elliot

[Synnen]

1. If all of that is true, then why has absolutely NO ONE brought impeachment charges? The president is as subject to our laws as the rest of us are.
2. We strike. We protest. We rise up against tyranny. Unlike many of the OTHER countries that because dictatorships after an election --precisely why I brought up the 3 countries I did: they ELECTED their dictators, and it was peaceful until jobs started disappearing and the inflation became insane, because of pressure from the IMF and the US to auction off state owned resources/companies--but anyway, unlike those countries, most of our middle class is ARMED. Granted, it's not AK47s, but a rifle can kill you just as dead.

Should our country TRULY start becoming a dictatorship, people WILL rise up, and it WILL be a civil war.

[ETWolverine]

1. If all of that is true, then why has absolutely NO ONE brought impeachment charges? The president is as subject to our laws as the rest of us are.

Impeachment requires a supermajority vote of Congress.

And who controls Congress?

There's your answer.

2. We strike. We protest. We rise up against tyranny. Unlike many of the OTHER countries that because dictatorships after an election --precisely why I brought up the 3 countries I did: they ELECTED their dictators, and it was peaceful until jobs started disappearing and the inflation became insane, because of pressure from the IMF and the US to auction off state owned resources/companies--but anyway, unlike those countries, most of our middle class is ARMED. Granted, it's not AK47s, but a rifle can kill you just as dead.

Should our country TRULY start becoming a dictatorship, people WILL rise up, and it WILL be a civil war.

Thank you, you just made my argument for the sanctity of gun rights and the 2nd Amendment. Off topic, I know, but I decided to take the opportunity where it presented itself.

[excon]

1. If all of that is true, then why has absolutely NO ONE brought impeachment charges?

Impeachment requires a supermajority vote of Congress.

And who controls Congress? There's your answer.

Hello Synn:

It's because NONE of it IS true. It resides ONLY in the head of your friendly Wolverine...

You see how he dismisses you. I guess he figures you didn't take 2nd grade civics. Anyone who has, KNOWS that the minority party can bring up bills and/or resolutions for impeachment...

They CAN, and yet NONE of them have done so. Not, the Minority Leader Bohener, not whacko Michelle Bachmann, not ANY Republican... Why don't they?? It's because they believe Obama is a FINE AMERICAN even if opposed to them... Oh, they throw around WORDS, but they don't ACT on their words.

It's truly only the whacko's and right wing loons, like the birthers and some members of this board, who believe that. I guess we'll have to start calling them the impeachers...

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello Synn:

It's because NONE of it IS true. It resides ONLY in the head of your friendly Wolverine...

You see how he dismisses you. I guess he figures you didn't take 2nd grade civics. Anyone who has, KNOWS that the minority party can bring up bills and/or resolutions for impeachment...

They CAN, and yet NONE of them have done it. Not, the Minority Leader Bohener, not whacko Michelle Bachmann, not ANY Republican.... Why don't they???? It's because they believe Obama is a FINE AMERICAN even if opposed to them... Oh, they throw around WORDS, but they don't ACT on their words.

It's truly only the whacko's and right wing loons, like the birthers and some members of this board, who believe that. I guess we'll have to start calling them the impeachers...

excon

Hi Exy...

Which item was untrue?

Did Obama NOT fire the head of GM?

Did Obama not cap compensation for executives of AIG, GM and Chrysler and several banks, despite there being contracts in place for those compensation levels?

Did he not violate the contracts between GM and it's secured creditors by paying them LAST in the bankruptcy proceedings instead of first, as they should have been paid per the security agreements? And did he not pay the unsecured UNIONS first instead of last, also in violation of the security agreements? Were these not violations of both contract law and bankruptcy law?

As a matter of fact, I think he did every single one of these things. All of them have been thoroughly documented too. He did 'em, they violated the law, and he's getting away with it. And you're happy enough letting him get away with it, because it backs up your political leanings.

So basically, excon, you're full of $h!t. And now EVERYONE knows it.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

Speaking of wackos, irresponsible rhetoric, fear mongering and utter disrespect from the floor of Congress...

Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Fla.) warned Americans that "Republicans want you to die quickly" during an after-hours House floor speech Tuesday night.

His remarks, which drew angry and immediate calls for an apology from Republicans, were highlighted by a sign reading "The Republican Health Care Plan: Die Quickly."

Yeah, it's just the right-wing wackos making a circus out of this.

[NeedKarma]

This board is full of dysfunctional people.

[excon]

Which item was untrue?

Hello again, Wolverine.

Simple, really.

Synn asked why nobody has tried to impeach him. You said the reason is the Republicans don't control congress.

That's just flat out, UNTRUE, as I explained.

It's not even CLOSE the giving Synn an answer SHE deserves. But, you seem to have hooked me back into this stupid game of he said, she said.

I know you don't understand words. There ain't nothing I can DO about that. I'm out of here once again.

excon