[tomder55]

So forcing someone to work when there is none or lose your benefits isn't a punishment? OK, we'll call it a penalty.

No... It's a tax!!

[talaniman]

But Speech, that was your position! YOU are the one who said people should be required to work to get benefits. If there is no work, then what? No benefits?

And because a person pays for insurance through PREMIUMS, and the INSURANCE COMPANY pays for the meds, whatever they are, doesn't mean YOU are paying for them. Or the church for that matter. What part of the INSURANCE company paying the benefits to its CUSTOMERS is it you don't get??

All of a sudden you think a church can dictate what private business does to service its customers? That's absurd. You rather the church replace the law, and the government. That's absurd too!

I don't recall the church having the right to get between a patient and physician, or stop a pharmacy from filling a perscription from the doctor, and INSURANCE paying for it. I also don't recall the church offering free insurance either.

No ....It's a tax !!!!!

A tax on who? The lazy guy who takes your money because he chose not to buy insurance and goes to the emergency room? I thought you guys hated paying for other peoples stuff?

[tomder55]

Almost 50 % of American households already receive Federal Government assistance . How big do you want the safety net to grow ?Means-tested programs, designed to help the needy, accounted for the largest share of recipients last year. Some 34.2 percent of Americans lived in a household that received benefits such as food stamps, subsidized housing, cash welfare or Medicaid.

[talaniman]

It wouldn't have to grow if job creators were making jobs here, instead of China. I mean a waitress or cook at Taco Bell doesn't make enough for rent, food, AND a baysitter while she works.

You know the working poor, mostly KIDS!!

[tomder55]

Yeah life it tough. As I recall;I didn't start at the top wage scale of my profession either . There were plenty of Taco Bell like jobs in my youth ;and worse .Perhaps if someone was giving me a bunch of freebees while I worked those jobs ,there may not have been the incentive to move on to better jobs.

[talaniman]

Things have changed since you walked a mile in a blizzard with no shoes on to go to school, and there are a lot more Taco Bells, but not a lot of higher paying jobs to go to, incentive or NOT!

[speechlesstx]

But Speech, that was your position! YOU are the one who said people should be required to work to get benefits. If there is no work, then what? No benefits?

IF a person is able to work and can find work they should be required to do so. That's my position, and quite reasonable. Gutting the work requirements that decreased our welfare roles is stupid, it only promotes more abuse of the system. Benjamin Franklin observed while living in Europe, “in different countries … the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”

It's even worse today, just look at the fits being thrown in Greece, France and Spain over the thought of losing some of their precious government benefits even in the face of it bringing their countries to complete economic failure.

And since you love facts, did you know that the percentage of poor declined from 1947 until the war on poverty and its massive spending increases?

So your choice again, do you want to go with what works or is that so old school?

And because a person pays for insurance through PREMIUMS, and the INSURANCE COMPANY pays for the meds, whatever they are, doesn't mean YOU are paying for them. Or the church for that matter.

You simply can't separate the two no matter how much thou doth protest.

What part of the INSURANCE company paying the benefits to its CUSTOMERS is it you don't get??

What part of without my premiums no benefits are paid don't you get?

All of a sudden you think a church can dictate what private business does to service its customers? That's absurd. You rather the church replace the law, and the government. That's absurd too!

If I'm providing the coverage I get to choose the coverage. Duh.

[Wondergirl]

Gutting the work requirements that decreased our welfare roles is stupid, it only promotes more abuse of the system.

But much of the manufacturing and call-center work has been moved overseas.

[talaniman]

Quote by Speech!
If I'm providing the coverage I get to choose the coverage. Duh.

You get to choose from what they OFFER, Duh!

[tomder55]

Things have changed since you walked a mile in a blizzard with no shoes on to go to school, and there are a lot more Taco Bells, but not a lot of higher paying jobs to go to, incentive or NOT!!

I think the job situation was a lot worse when I entered the work force.
Unemployment peaked above 10% when I entered the workforce and was also pretty bad in the years after I graduated . What I recall was that when Mickey D's had a job opening there was a line outside of eager applicants. On top of that ,interest rates were almost 20% on some things like credit card and some loans ,and the official inflation rate was in double digits too.

I didn't park my asset in my parents home ,do whatever the equivant of social media all day long and get a government payout for 99 weeks. I took jobs that are evidently beneath the kids today . I say that because whenever I get served in a fast food store today ;the person serving me barely speaks English . So yeah ;things are indeed not the same as when I was starting . But then again... I started getting paid for doing work before I entered High School. I don't see kids shovelling driveways ,mowing lawns ,doing other odd jobs here in blue NY .

[Wondergirl]

I didn't park my asset in my parents home ,do whatever the equivant of social media all day long

There was no equivalent except daytime TV (soaps) and reading books. Working was a far sight better and much more lucrative.

[tomder55]

Working was a far sight better and much more lucrative

As it is today. I know what I'm talking about . I don't see the ambition or drive from many of the kids. Because one takes a job they are over qualified for doesn't mean they should either assume that is where they will be the rest of their lives ;or even worse... give up and stop looking because Uncle Sam gave you a year and a half reprieve (followed by the new 2009 lax requirements for disability eligibility ) .

[Wondergirl]

It all goes back to the feeling of entitlement too many of them have been infused with since birth. And who did that to them?

[talaniman]

Get out of your neighborhood, the kids here are busting there butts.

[tomder55]

Tal ,yes I'm sure in a red state they are. It all goes to that thing WG mentioned prior to your response. The kids here have their own personal butt wipers. And kids in your state are experiencing a private sector energy boom . Now I tell kids here all the time to go to Texas and the Dakotas where a young person can make something of themselves.

[excon]

The kids here have their own personal butt wipers. and kids in your state are experiencing a private sector energy boom

Hello again, tom:

Sounds like a good reason to FURNISH FREE birth control pills to the libs... It's even BETTER than voter suppression. They'll make themselves extinct.

excon

[speechlesstx]

You get to choose from what they OFFER, Duh!

And if I don't like what they offer or they won't tailor to my needs I can go elsewhere. Duh.

[paraclete]

Yes speech you always have that option

[talaniman]

And if I don't like what they offer or they won't tailor to my needs I can go elsewhere. Duh.

Exactly, that's the free market.

[TUT317]

My rights and my liberty are at stake here, Tut. You can't find a more perfect example of this than the contraceptive mandate which in essence forces the church to violate her conscience or cease her ministries to the very people this government claims to be looking out for. Our government is not prepared to take on the food pantries, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, orphanages, etc. that will be closed if this mandate prevails.

If this amounts to your position then I am not prepared to challenge it. I want to be the last person to claim you fears are unwarranted. I don't know what it is like to live in a society whereby you feel as though you are in a state of siege from various quarters.

Jefferson argued “to take from one … in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”

What happened to that being a part of the social contract?

I don't really know what happened to the social contract in light of this quote.

This is largely because it seems to be a partial quote. I would also need to know the context of the quote.

I think we have talked about the problems of 'contextomy' in another post. I am not saying it is a problem here- but it may well be.

Tut