[ScottRC]

"It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" Rom 9:27--not "it is appointed for men to die once, then have time to get their act together, and then comes judgment."

Agreed.

Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.
CCC #1022

[Wondergirl]

Agreed.

Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.
CCC #1022

Wait a minute! Back up the bus! Where does that verse indicate or even imply "through a purification"?

[ScottRC]

Wait a minute! Back up the bus!

Beep beep beep beep :)

Where does that verse indicate or even imply "through a purification"?

What verse are you referring to?

[Wondergirl]

What verse are you refering to?

Wake up and pay attention! And did you sing the Barney song yet?

The verse is the one I just posted --

"It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" Rom 9:27--not "it is appointed for men to die once, then have time to get their act together, and then comes judgment."

If you don't like that one, I'll find more (pssssssst! Heh heh -- Scripture interpreting and supporting Scripture).

[ScottRC]

Wake up and pay attention! And did you sing the Barney song yet?

Yes, ma'm... three times... but I also grabbed some ice cream... your fault by mentioning it! :D

"It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" Rom 9:27--not "it is appointed for men to die once, then have time to get their act together, and then comes judgment."

Ah... my bad.

The verse says that men die and then are judged.

I agree... and supported this with the Catholic teaching that "Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death"

What don't you understand?

If you don't like that one, I'll find more (pssssssst! Heh heh -- Scripture interpreting and supporting Scripture).

Psssst... nope... that's YOU posting scripture that YOU believe is relevant based upon YOUR PERSONAL interpretation of the verses...

If they truly interpreted themselves, it would be self-evident to all.

[tsila1777]

When Jesus was on the cross He said, "It is finished!"
1 Corinthians 1:7-9 (King James Version)




7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Wondergirl]

I agree.... and supported this with the Catholic teaching that "Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death"

What don't you understand?

That has nothing to do with purgatory.

[Wondergirl]

Psssst... nope... that's YOU posting scripture that YOU believe is relevant based upon YOUR PERSONAL interpretation of the verses...

Just checkin' to see if you are reading my posts. Good. You are.

If they truly interpreted themselves, it would be self-evident to all.

It is. They do.

[arcura]

ScottRC,
Excellent post.
When I was a Catholic bashing Protestant the teaching about Purgatory was one of the subjects I used in bashing The Church.
It was one of the hardest for me to understand when I started seriously studying The Church's teaching as related to the bible.
So I understand those here who have difficulty with it.
But I know, as I have mentioned, that the day will come for those seeking heaven to know for sure that Purgatory exists.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Wondergirl]

Purgatory exists.

And what is the evidence for this?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
How many times must I post these bible passages that indicate that Purgatory exists?
Please look them up and ponder them.
Purgatory
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Wondergirl,
How many times must I post these bible passages that indicate that Purgatory exists?
Please look them up and ponder them.
Purgatory
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred, copying and pasting these from the Catholic Cheatsheet website does not add credibility to them. And you know as well as I do that these have been refuted as many times as they have been posted.

My suggestion would be for you to look them up before posting them.

Tell you what, Fred, when I have some free time, I will post the rebuttals again.

[ScottRC]

That has nothing to do with purgatory.

Ummmm... that was why I asked what verse you were referring to because this verse does NOT have anything to do with Purgatory... so I'll again ask, what's your point.

It is. They do.

All evidence to the contrary...

[Wondergirl]

Purgatory
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins

I have never seen your post listing them. Nothing unclean will enter heaven because Jesus was our perfect sacrifice here on earth, and His sacrifice and His grace are sufficient for my going to heaven upon my death. There are many verses that confirm that. Yes, in heaven all souls are perfect. Thank you, Jesus. Col 1:24 is speaking of Paul's earthly suffering.

There's a series of very major t'storms going through the Chicago area. I have to shut off my computer again. More later.

[ScottRC]

Nothing unclean will enter heaven because Jesus was our perfect sacrifice here on earth, and His sacrifice and His grace are sufficient for my going to heaven upon my death.

Well, I can only assume that you admit you are not perfect now... why does this change when you die?

Why is Jesus' sacrifice only "effective" to purify us AFTER our death but not before?

Thanks for helping me understand.

[Wondergirl]

Well, I can only assume that you admit you are not perfect now... why does this change when you die?

Why is Jesus' sacrifice only "effective" to purify us AFTER our death but not before?

Thanks for helping me understand.

Luther found a phrase that worked for him, and it works for me too -- "simul iustus et peccator," at the same time righteous and a sinner. Christ's righteousness has been lovingly wrapped around me, but not because of any merit of my own. As long as I live, I am caught in this world, guilty of wrongdoing, a sinner. I wake up each morning with a clean slate in front of me--and how long does that slate remain clean?? Until I get dressed, or maybe only until I stand up out of bed? Only "in Christ" and because of His work of redemption am I righteous and counted as one of God's children, and deserving of heaven.

[tsila1777]

I could not find the word purgatory in the Bible. I did some research and found that the translation is Hell. I found Hell in the Bible. But Jesus went to Hell and paid the price for my sins and iniquities, and by His stripes I am healed. I also found that I have redemption through His Blood, I have forgiveness of sins,
I sit with Him in the heavenly places.

It is by grace that I am saved through faith and nothing of me, it is the gift of God so I cannot not boast in myself, but of Him. I am His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. And I am confident that He Who has begun a good work in me, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

I am complete in Him, He had forgiven me all trespasses, even to blotting out the ordinances that was against me, and nailed it to His cross. I am dead, and my life is hid with Christ in God, when Christ appears I shall appear with Him in glory.

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Y'all who believe in it can go to purgatory if you want to, but when that trump of God sounds I’m going up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall I ever be with the Lord.




That's exciting to think about isn't it?

[ScottRC]

Luther found a phrase that worked for him, and it works for me too -- "simul iustus et peccator," at the same time righteous and a sinner.

Super... but that does not answer my question... but brings up yet another: will you STILL be a "righteous sinner" in heaven?... remember "Pursue peace with everyone, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14 ... holiness (at least my definition) is NOT being a sinner, so I'm not sure how you or Luther get around this.;)

"Nothing unclean, or anyone who does anything detestable, and no one who tells lies will ever enter it. Only those whose names are written in the lamb's Book of Life will enter it." Rev 21:27

Even the most "righteous sinner" is unlean and detestable before God... and I'm sure we all have told our share of lies... so I wonder how we can get our names in the book with the sinful state we're in... see what I'm getting at?

And while I'm quite certain you don't agree... I hope you now at least understand the BIBLICAL basis of this teaching.

[Peter Wilson]

I have NO CLUE as to what the point of your post is....

It has NOTHING to do with the Catholic teaching on Purgatory, so I'm at a loss at how to respond.... nothing that you offered is contrary to Catholic teaching.... so I can only assume that you just don't understand it and have projected your faulty understanding into the discussion.

If you consider yourself to be a child of God, then this is how you think of Him, as a cruel and vicious tyrant that enjoys bringing pain on His children, "Just to teach them a lesson"

If we are judged at the moment of death, what about the "Day of judgement",

Revelation 20
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You can follow your religion, but I would rather follow the faith of the Bible.

Revelation 22

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Take fair warning, God's words, not mine.:cool:

[rhadsen]

Maybe it does... maybe it does not... Catholic theology does not rest upon looking for "proof texts" to justify our teachings.... so I'm not sure what you could gain by trying to break down each and every verse... it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide which is correct, right?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not so fast there Scott. :D Obviously you felt it supported purgatory, otherwise you wouldn't have brought up 1 Peter 1:7. Why do you feel that it supports purgatory if what Peter is writing about is happening to live people at the time of his writing? Can you see that it offers no support to the official definition which talks of something after death? Wouldn't you break down a verse if you disagreed with our use of it, or if a Jehovah witness offered a verse as proof of his notion that Jesus is "a god" rather than "The God?" If a Jehovah witness said, it all comes down to a matter of interpretation and who can decide what is correct," would you agree with him? My guess is that you wouldn't.


Maybe you think that I'm wrong. What from the text itself and the literal and historical context of 1 Peter 1:7 leads you to believe that Peter is talking about Purgatory? Surely you must have had a reason to introduce that text. What was it?

Rob