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dwashbur · Aug 22, 2022, 08:51 PM

This entire thread comes full circle; Authority of the Bible. I have to wonder why nobody wants to touch on this subject.

Because it has nothing to do with the topic I raised. I asked a specific question about a specific passage, to be sure I'm not reading something into it. You have tried to hijack my thread and turn it into...I have no idea what. I have no clue what kind of bee is in your bonnet. But the authority of the Bible has nothing at all to do with the topic I raised.

Please stop trying to change the subject. If you don't have anything to contribute to my question, please refrain from comment. Because so far, nothing you have said has anything to do with my question. Please stop hijacking.

waltero · Aug 22, 2022, 10:15 PM

If you don't read the NT, where does the "[true] Answer" come from?

Maybe the OT? The answer came before the Question...that's why it is important to look at the Whole of the Bible.

Not a question of Authority?

Wait. WHO is in charge??

Today's Greek reading brought me to something I never noticed before. In Luke 4:5 Satan says HE has authority over the nations/kingdoms of the Earth and they're his to give to whomever he chooses. Not God, Satan.

That kind of puts a very different spin on things when someone says "God put so and so in that office". Sounds like maybe it was the other guy?????

I haven't seen a single commentary tackle this question. I confess I've been reading that passage since I was 4 years old and never noticed this before. Anybody have any thoughts on it?
and Except Jesus didn't contradict him. He only addressed the question of worship.

The whole "look around you" misses the question. It's not "what's going on," it's "who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"

The Whole "Look around you"- Is the Answer to your question. That's why it's important to look at the question using the Whole of the Bible, not just the greek...You missed your own question! you missed the Question as well as any answer you were looking for...we know this because of your rejection of OT scripture (more than 3 were posted).

Because it [Authority] has nothing to do with the topic I raised.

Really, REALLY!

That doesn't make sense. If I find a particular part confusing, why wouldn't I start with that part? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Because you deny it has anything to do with "the Authority" of the Entirety of Scriptures.

Please stop trying to change the subject

The greek rising up once again?

Because so far, nothing you have said has anything to do with my question

And there you have it. Denial of the OT Scriptures, that were brought up. whether it be me or the OT scriptures, that brought them up! That's exactly what I'm talking about. you lack faith brother...faith in the Scriptures. it might be better if you discard the Greek for the time being.

why wouldn't I start with that part?

Because it simply ends up being an argument. Wasting the entire time with a particular, instead of coming under the Authority of the Scriptures.

There are certain advantages for a believer wanting to study Greek. Greek should not be used having a desire to "Marshall the Scripture," - As you, all are doing at this moment. Not saying it starts out with that desire, but it certainly can end up that way...without even knowing it...kinda like a Politician, they might start out good and Honest, but they all end up crooked and corrupt. I'm not saying that you are any of those. You can hop into any religious (or other) topic on this Forum and see that this very thing is the usual. Always an argument ensues. Your denial of Human interpretation not being with believers' understanding of the Scriptures is disturbing.

It's 100% a matter having to do with "the Authority of the Bible"!
Don't be a denier of "the Authority of the Bible."

jlisenbe · Aug 23, 2022, 04:37 AM

I'm trying to learn. I am not arguing. You've already learned your truth. You have no idea what I'm talking about. So why would you assume I am arguing the Bible? It is all, you baby!

Of course you are arguing. How ridiculous to suggest you are not.

Honestly, I don't know what your objection is. People here have patiently answered your questions. It seems to come down to, "It's 100% a matter having to do with "the Authority of the Bible! Don't be a denier of "the Authority of the Bible." Well, no one here has denied the authority of the Bible. DW's original question had nothing to do with the authority of the Bible, and everything to do with wanting to understand the meaning of a Bible passage.

So what is your objection?

waltero · Aug 23, 2022, 08:28 AM

DW, Quote:

"who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"
Satan says HE has authority

I understand that DW is not asking or looking for an answer to this question - having an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures...I've been telling you from the start, that this question is under false pretense. He is not being honest with himself, in the sense that he doesn't understand the true "Authority of the Scriptures"...asking - "who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?" He is asking from a Human point of view, looking for a flesh-driven answer. That comes from his knowledge in the Greeks. If "Greek is the Bible" then go ahead and produce whatever Answer fits your fancy. You are welcome to bring in the NT, but you can't gain a full understanding...being that it is you who has ultimate "Authority of the "Bible."

Well, no one here has denied the authority of the Bible.

Yet we get this from you:

DW's original question had nothing to do with the authority of the Bible

No, really? Have none of you denied the Authority of the Bible? You're doing it right now. In fact, you do it "every time" (no joke) your Bible is brought up, on this site...I say "your B.i.b.l.e" because I believe the Bible for you is a simple acronym. You have no faith in its authority... that's why it always ends up going to argument...it's simply a book of instructions for you. And with all instruction books, errata is included. You're not finding the Errata? it is only found in the Spirit.

So what is your objection?

You are seeking Answers when you should be seeking the Kingdom of heaven that is within you. The entire Question that was posted here has to do with the Flesh. And you all are looking for Answers, given to you by your flesh.

We have evidence that all that passed in the Temptation was in the region of which the spirit, and not the senses, takes cognizance...and the question here has "nothing to do with "the Authority of the Bible!" That is where you're Wrong. Have to wonder why you are so afraid to understand the Authority of the Bible and what it entails?

@JL; The Answer to your Question Earlier; Old testament = Body. New testament = Life:

Has to do with Solomon's Question in Ecclesiastes. All is vanity under the Sun.
It's clear to me Solomon was with Question; Was there life before Death? The answer is NO (OT was Body/Death). NT - Jesus/life; Not until Jesus Lived "his" life did Jesus Bring life in our lives (before death), and that same Life is the only life after death...Fire away!

Of course you are arguing

Many times I have come on this site to further educate myself. Then I find myself lost in a world of argument. That is when I know it's time to back off. Arguing the Bible is Moot, it amounts to nothing and is very detrimental.

I was simply Trying to Touch on the true (Authority of the Bible) subject matter that this post was inferring. Who knew, when DW was Asking; "who is the actual authority" that he wasn't talking about the Bible...oh wait, I knew, hmm? You all seem to have it already figured out...yet argument continues to ensue. It's clear.

Wondergirl · Aug 23, 2022, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by waltero

DW, Quote: I understand that DW is not asking or looking for an answer to this question - having an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures...

DW asked a question in the beginning of this thread in order to encourage discussion on the very neglected Christianity board. I've known him for years. He DOES NOT have "an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures". The exact opposite is true.

jlisenbe · Aug 23, 2022, 12:48 PM

So what is your objection?

You are seeking Answers when you should be seeking the Kingdom of heaven that is within you.

OK. How do you do that? Does the Bible enter into the "seeking"?

We have evidence that all that passed in the Temptation was in the region of which the spirit, and not the senses, takes cognizance

That's just not true. The five senses were very much in operation the entire time. Certainly sight and hearing played into the conversation heavily. Perhaps I'm just not getting what your point is?

Has to do with Solomon's Question in Ecclesiastes. All is vanity under the Sun.
It's clear to me Solomon was with Question; Was there life before Death? The answer is NO (OT was Body/Death). NT - Jesus/life; Not until Jesus Lived "his" life did Jesus Bring life in our lives (before death), and that same Life is the only life after death...Fire away!

Completely nonsensical.

jlisenbe · Aug 23, 2022, 02:55 PM

Not until Jesus Lived "his" life did Jesus Bring life in our lives (before death), and that same Life is the only life after death.

That section is actually pretty good, but no one here that I know of has said otherwise, have they?

dwashbur · Aug 23, 2022, 08:04 PM

I understand that DW is not asking or looking for an answer to this question - having an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures..

You understand absolutely nothing. You have no clue what you are jabbering about, you are constantly misrepresenting me, not to say lying about me, you refuse to take instruction and hide your head in the sand of "authority of the Bible". As JL pointed out, nobody here has denied it. You claim we have, even though we have all explicitly said we acknowledge it.

You want to redefine everything, including "authority of the Bible" to suit your own wants. You don't get to do that. I don't know who you think you are, but you don't get to do that. You don't have the least idea what you are trying to assert, and you're pulling it all out of your where-you-weren't-looking.

Just stop it. Accusing me of "having an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures" (what does that even mean? Nothing.) is a LIE, and I'm calling you out on your LIE.

STOP LYING ABOUT ME. You haven't the faintest idea what I have done for the past 50 years defending and refining the thing you accuse me of not having. You are a liar and it's my opinion that if you continue to be unteachable and lie about people, maybe you should leave.

I speak only for myself, lest anyone presume.

jlisenbe · Aug 24, 2022, 04:03 AM

Walter said, "You are seeking Answers when you should be seeking the Kingdom of heaven that is within you." I replied, "OK. How do you do that? Does the Bible enter into the seeking?"

I hope he will answer that question.

Most of the time it is relatively easy to figure out what it is that drives some of the contentious posting that happens here. Not with Walter. I still don't know what he seems to be irritated about.

But I do hope Walter continues to post. Maybe we just need to change the subject.

waltero · Sep 13, 2022, 07:10 AM

Today's Greek reading brought me to something I never noticed before. In Luke 4:5 Satan says HE has authority over the nations/kingdoms of the Earth and they're his to give to whomever he chooses. Not God, Satan.

Because it has nothing to do with the topic I raised. I asked a specific question about a specific passage, to be sure I'm not reading something into it.

DW's original question had nothing to do with the authority

You're looking in the wrong direction. To be sure, you are "reading something into it". I think it has more to do with Pride...using the greek, as if it is to be considered more profound (being from the Greek) than meets the eye. Many of you are stuck here trying to work out your arguments. It's not as simple as learning the greek in order to - Marshal the word!

Read your Post again:
Why do you refuse to believe that this question has absolutely nothing to do with "Authority"?
Not only that, but You all seem furious that this thread should move in the direction of Authority.
How often do these posts stay on topic? Why so Angry?

That doesn't make sense. If I find a particular part confusing, why wouldn't I start with that part? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

You have no idea because you are far too intelligent for your own good.

jlisenbe · Sep 13, 2022, 08:17 AM

Walter, why are you avoiding questions? I'll repost them.

So what is your objection?

You are seeking Answers when you should be seeking the Kingdom of heaven that is within you.

OK. How do you do that? Does the Bible enter into the "seeking"?

We have evidence that all that passed in the Temptation was in the region of which the spirit, and not the senses, takes cognizance

That's just not true. The five senses were very much in operation the entire time. Certainly sight and hearing played into the conversation heavily. Perhaps I'm just not getting what your point is?

Has to do with Solomon's Question in Ecclesiastes. All is vanity under the Sun.
It's clear to me Solomon was with Question; Was there life before Death? The answer is NO (OT was Body/Death). NT - Jesus/life; Not until Jesus Lived "his" life did Jesus Bring life in our lives (before death), and that same Life is the only life after death...Fire away!

Completely nonsensical in supposing you know that Solomon was asking about life before death. There is just nothing there at all to indicate that.

dwashbur · Sep 13, 2022, 08:52 AM

You're looking in the wrong direction. To be sure, you are "reading something into it". I think it has more to do with Pride...using the greek, as if it is to be considered more profound (being from the Greek) than meets the eye. Many of you are stuck here trying to work out your arguments. It's not as simple as learning the greek in order to - Marshal the word!

So many words, so little meaning. I still have no idea what your point is. Since I'm the one who raised the question, I suspect I understand the "direction" better than you, as an outsider who doesn't live in my head, ever will.

You have no idea because you are far too intelligent for your own good.

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment.

Wondergirl · Sep 13, 2022, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by waltero

You [dwashbur] have no idea because you are far too intelligent for your own good.

I've known him for years. God has richly blessed him with excellent cognitive skills that have served us well on this site (and on others)!

Wondergirl · Sep 13, 2022, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by waltero

It's not as simple as learning the greek in order to - Marshal the word!

Actually it is very important to harken back to and read something in the original language. Words can be mistranslated and skipped over by translators. I learned that when taking three years of Latin in high school and also learned that from my German-speaking grandparents.

jlisenbe · Sep 13, 2022, 12:49 PM

Words can be mistranslated and skipped over by translators.

That's true, but far more frequently we see amateurs who mistranslate words because of their religious and societal prejudices rather than for any truly honest reason.

Wondergirl · Sep 13, 2022, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That's true, but far more frequently we see amateurs who mistranslate words because of their religious and societal prejudices rather than for any truly honest reason.

As was the case with some of the ancient (and even current) Bible translators who had/have an agenda.

dwashbur · Sep 13, 2022, 05:49 PM

Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
That's true, but far more frequently we see amateurs who mistranslate words because of their religious and societal prejudices rather than for any truly honest reason.
As was the case with some of the ancient (and even current) Bible translators who had/have an agenda.

That's the beauty of having who knows how many translations. Even those without language training can compare them side by side, word by word if necessary, and determine to a large degree what the text says. I make no secret of the fact that one has to be a little warped to get into the language stuff as excitedly as I do, but even the non-warped have resources at their fingertips now that people two generations ago would have sacrificed their pinky toes to possess. In particular, computer Bible programs such as Logos make it possible for anybody to look up almost anything and have a fair idea that what they're reading is reliable.

I would rather see six bad translations countered by sixty good translations, because with careful comparison the person in the pew can determine what constitutes a bad translation. That excites me almost as much as coming across a Hebrew word I don't remember seeing before.

jlisenbe · Sep 13, 2022, 06:29 PM

That's the beauty of having who knows how many translations. Even those without language training can compare them side by side, word by word if necessary, and determine to a large degree what the text says. I make no secret of the fact that one has to be a little warped to get into the language stuff as excitedly as I do, but even the non-warped have resources at their fingertips now that people two generations ago would have sacrificed their pinky toes to possess. In particular, computer Bible programs such as Logos make it possible for anybody to look up almost anything and have a fair idea that what they're reading is reliable.

Wonderful observation. Biblegateway.com, for instance, can easily arrange five different translations of the same passage side by side. Strong's Concordance can be very helpful. Biblehub.com has an interlinear translation that is keyed to the SC. The list goes on and on. The person to beware of is the one who makes an appeal to a particular translation of a word or words that is basically unsupported by no modern translation at all, but because of the plethora of good translations we have, such error is easy to see fairly quickly.

dwashbur · Sep 14, 2022, 01:09 PM

Wonderful observation. Biblegateway.com, for instance, can easily arrange five different translations of the same passage side by side. Strong's Concordance can be very helpful. Biblehub.com has an interlinear translation that is keyed to the SC. The list goes on and on. The person to beware of is the one who makes an appeal to a particular translation of a word or words that is basically unsupported by no modern translation at all, but because of the plethora of good translations we have, such error is easy to see fairly quickly.

Yes. There's also blueletterbible and many others. I would only offer one caution, and that's placing too much faith in Strong's dictionary. The cross-reference numbers are one of the handiest things ever, and lots of resources are keyed to those numbers for easy reference. But the dictionary definitions themselves are often...how shall I put it? Over-doctrinal, over-translated, and sometimes just plain wrong. Considering it's about 150 years old and we've learned a bit more since then, it's understandable. But I see too many people look up Strong's definition and stop there. Ya don't wanna do that. Keep digging.

jlisenbe · Sep 14, 2022, 01:48 PM

Very true. Even more of a problem is when you key a word in Strong's dictionary and see that it has several potential meanings, some of which are significantly different from the others. I have seen people just pick out the one they like the most as opposed to any serious consideration of which definition is the most appropriate. For those of us not really conversant with Greek/Hebrew, just looking at several reputable translations is probably the best approach. Just my opinion.