[talaniman]

You are a hopeless romantic for the far off days of yesteryear,Tom. Surely we can do better than scorch the whole freakin' earth to have some peace.

Congrats on your upgrade to TIE!!

[paraclete]

I think he has lost the plot, there are a lot of things not acceptable today that would have been acceptable then. Do you know Lemay phosphorous bombed the Japanese, We got very up in arms when the Israeli's used phosphorous shells in Gaza. We no longer spray populations with DDT or defoliate the whole countryside with agent orange and even laying mine fields is out of fashion. The WWII solution would be to surround the cities with mine fields. If we were back in the good ole days of 1945, we would take out Racca with a nuke and call it game over

[tomder55]

Congrats on your upgrade to TIE!!

wow I wasn't paying attention because I have a bye week . How did that happen ? Cool ,that's 5 weeks I haven't lost . Now do your part and whip the cheese heads .

[paraclete]

Yes thse is nothing more important than the game

[talaniman]

Ya gotta relax and enjoy when you can. :D

[paraclete]

I do but I have long lost interest in sports

[tomder55]

I think he has lost the plot, there are a lot of things not acceptable today that would have been acceptable then. Do you know Lemay phosphorous bombed the Japanese, We got very up in arms when the Israeli's used phosphorous shells in Gaza. We no longer spray populations with DDT or defoliate the whole countryside with agent orange and even laying mine fields is out of fashion. The WWII solution would be to surround the cities with mine fields. If we were back in the good ole days of 1945, we would take out Racca with a nuke and call it game over

Clete and tal ;You will recall that it was my plan to keep a sufficient deterent force in Iraq until the government could handle security on their own. It is the policy of abandonment and retreat by the emperor that has led to the current situation where it may take a bloodier and nastier solution. Clete ,tell me where precision pin pricks have won . Your solution lends itself to a slow bleed ,prolonged and ultimately costlier solution ;even if victory is the endgame (which it often isn't) . Spare me the Marquis of Queensbury rules . Modern ROE get too many of the good guys killed .

[paraclete]

Tom I have said before we do one of two things, have an all out effort or remove ourselves and leave them to solve it themselves. You want to blame Obama for this situation, that gives you a cheap political shot, but you will recall that the Iraqis want you to leave so they could manager their own affairs without being an occupied country. It hasn't worked out because of their stupid tribalism and religious nonsense, predictable, but you cannot save people from themselves.

The rules are the rules Tom I don't make them. But don't bring up the strawman of deterrent force, when you had a reduced presence it didn't work and you had to have the surge to secure the country. I think it tells us they can't govern themselves and they arn't willing to fight a determined enemy. Tom these are a defeated people. Saddam bullied them and they did not rise up, the US defeated them twice, three times if you count the surge. There are few people left who have ever known peace and prosperity, the Kurds maybe. The three state solution was a better solution and should have been implemented, This would not have happened if that had been done.

[tomder55]

but you will recall that the Iraqis want you to leave so they could manager their own affairs without being an occupied country

A status of forces agreement was in force when the emperor assumed the throne . That was an agreement that the twice elected Iraqi government negotiated . No ,you have it backward . The emperor pronounced that we were going to leave regardless of the security situation .So the Iraqi government had no choice but to turn to the Iranians for security agreements. That came with a quid pro quo from Iran regarding Shia dominance in the government instead of the shared governance that was working . It was that decision that led to the ressurection of the Sunni resistance (aka Islamic State ) .

The three state solution was a better solution and should have been implemented, This would not have happened if that had been done.

Wrong again .The 3 state solution is what you now have de facto. It guarantees civil war between the Shia and Sunni populations ,and the gobbling up of the Kurdish region by Turkey and Iran .

[paraclete]

No Tom what you have now is insurrection fuelled by shiia injustice. A three state solution wouldn't have resulted in civil war because they would have governed themselves.. You must stop swallowing the party line. There are viable alternatives to the Bushe Democracy of Iraq

[talaniman]

There was also a troop withdrawal deadline in place put there by GWB.

Who Withdrew From Iraq? Was It Bush or Obama and Clinton? | John A. Tures

"The Security Agreement also sets a date of December 31, 2011, for all U.S. forces to withdraw from Iraq. This date reflects the increasing capacity of the Iraqi Security Forces as demonstrated in operations this year throughout Iraq, as well as an improved regional atmosphere towards Iraq, an expanding Iraqi economy, and an increasingly confident Iraqi government."

Obama did try to negotiate an extension, but Iraq's al-Maliki government would not give American troops immunity from Iraq law, something the U.S. President called "the deal breaker." And Iraq's decision not to provide such immunity was criticized by Republican conservatives.

Shows Obama is willing to walk away from a "bad deal".

[talaniman]

The funny part to me is after we were denied keeping troops in Iraq over the immunity issue, we still have troops in Iraq and are sending more to keep training/advising Iraqi troops (if you can call them that).

Obama walked away from the Iraqi deal, and got things done anyway with keeping a military presence in Iraq. No casualties, or prosecutions either. Those are facts the repubs (AND Jeb) never acknowledge, while they holler and blame and call Obama names.

[talaniman]

One could also conclude, default or not, the 3 state solution that has occurred in Iraq may not be a bad thing. Maybe a sunni leader will emerge and reject ISIS, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen, so containing Isis until a better opposition emerges is a prudent course at this time.

It's not like we don't have planes, drones, bombs and missiles, and it's great target practice for pilots, both remote and manned. You know, in case we change targets to another country, like Iran, Syria... North Korea?

Isn't it a good thing when they enemy dies, and WE don't? Quiet as it's kept there are no cries that we shouldn't keep doing what we are doing, as support and involvement by others grows... slowly maybe... but surely.

[tomder55]

The funny part to me is after we were denied keeping troops in Iraq over the immunity issue, we still have troops in Iraq and are sending more to keep training/advising Iraqi troops (if you can call them that).

Obama walked away from the Iraqi deal, and got things done anyway with keeping a military presence in Iraq. No casualties, or prosecutions either. Those are facts the repubs (AND Jeb) never acknowledge, while they holler and blame and call Obama names.

Don't give Obama the credit where he doesn't deserve it . The withdrawal deal the Bush negotiators made with Iraq would have left tens of thousands of U.S. troops inside Iraq for an unspecified time.

You can't spin your way out of it . Obama's own Sec Defense laid the truth bare in his book .

President Obama was advised to keep a stay-behind force and warned about the consequences if he did not. He preferred to keep his campaign pledge to get all the troops out. The White House therefore allowed negotiations to falter for a status of forces agreement and bragged it had gotten all the troops out. Iraq has now collapsed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...es-about-iraq/

We had leverage. We could, for instance, have threatened to withdraw reconstruction aid to Iraq if al-Maliki would not support some sort of continued U.S. military presence. My fear, as I voiced to the President and others, was that if the country split apart or slid back into the violence that we'd seen in the years immediately following the U.S. invasion, it could become a new haven for terrorists to plot attacks against the U.S. Iraq's stability was not only in Iraq's interest but also in ours. I privately and publicly advocated for a residual force that could provide training and security for Iraq's military.

Leon Panetta: How the White House Misplayed Iraqi Troop Talks

[paraclete]

You guys really must lose your GOD COMPLEX your really are not in control of the destiny of the world and your efforts are not helping. You either are all in or not in, what is happening at the moment in selective bombing is hardly more than containment and as long as you allow daesh to consolidate their hold on territory the harder they will be to dislodge. You may have to accept that a new nation has formed, a new phirrah state born. Their military forces have shown themeslves to be more effective than many thousands of trained troops with sophisticated weapons and they are redrawing the map of the middle east

[tomder55]

shame on us if that happens . Years from now the people will look back at the rape of the Yazidis and ask how could the world let that happen ? Another holocoust that could've been prevented by the free people of the world .

[paraclete]

It appears the free people of the world are under siege and have many local problems to contend with, these mass migrations caused by war and economic disadvantage are the great threat, the population of Syria and Iraq is being displaced into Europe, the population of latin america into the US and we have yet to truly see the migrations of the african peoples stated by slavery five centuries ago but they must be drawn by the relative success of their people in the americas. We have stemmed the tide in Australia for the time being, but there are significant numbers from the sub continent reestablishing themselves here to which is added the refugee flow, and overriding all of this is the Muslim problem, the attempt to reestablish the caliphate.

How could we let it happen, Tom, in exactly the same way as the holocaust of the jews started, with indifference and minimisation and isolation of the problem. Daesh are the nazi of the 21st century and their methods are the same, like the daleks of fiction their credo is exterminate. The significance of the black flag is death. You cannot negotiate and talk your way out of it. Diplomacy means nothing to these people and the best way of dealing with them is to unleash those who understand their mentality on them

[tomder55]

Daesh are the nazi of t

he 21st century and their methods are the same, like the daleks of fiction their credo is exterminate. The significance of the black flag is death. You cannot negotiate and talk your way out of it. Diplomacy means nothing to these people and the best way of dealing with them is to unleash those who understand their mentality on them

Unleash ? You make no sense . Just like Hiltler and Stalin made common cause with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact ,so does Iran and Turkey make common cause even though they are natural enemies. You saw it yourself in the battles around Kobani .The Turks were in a position to make a difference .Instead they stood on the sidelines watching the battle .
They have now stepped up their attacks on ISIS because ISIS turned on them. No you can't count on one evil to do the things necessary to eliminate another evil .
But that is of course the progessive mentality . The NY Slimes covered up what they knew about the concentration camps .

[paraclete]

Yes I make sense, this is an arab war held in check by your diplomacy. Your diplomacy has now allowed the Turks to attack the Kurds in Iraq with impunity, you wouldn't allow Saddam to do that but you allow the turks. The turks benefit from Daesh victories, it eliminates their enemies, the Shiia of Syria and Iraq and they are still standing on the sidelines and facilitating the passage of refugees into Europe. I have come to the conclusion we may be fighting the wrong enemy, Turkey has for centuries held aspirations of dominating Europe, how better to do it than with a muslim population and let us not forget they would like their old empire back, which will be easy once Daesh have weakened the armies of Syria and Iraq

Why do you behave this way, because you are allied with the Saudi and you want them as a check against Iran, but they play a double game too, supporting Daesh

[Misshome]

I couldn't finish reading it all, however.. "I have come to the conclusion we may be fighting the wrong enemy;" I totally agree with you. And this is what I have to say to my Fellow Muslims.. Look back .. History will teach you a good lesson.. And It is You, Muslim have to Fights back against BAD and Evil, even though they might be your loved ones..
Civilian are being Haunted and Profiled by them even here in the USA.
I have tried spoke to many Muslim leader of ISNA and ICNA and CAIR.. No one would listen to me..And totally being Ignorant that nothing had happen. They Set me up with Psychopath.. well she is a 800 Million Dollar Crime Baby.. The ARAB are Afraid to speak up against Pakistani-Afghani- Indian Muslims Criminal Acts. They are being Isolated by this Muslims of ICNA.. Dominated by the South East Asian Wealthy Muslims in the USA.

Here is a personal Story.. I have recently Travel from LOGAN to Phoenix.. Everything went fine when the Ticket was Booked. GOV't was okay by me.. but.. there was a SARC Rats.. of Wiker.. who send a Puertorican to Watch Video of Making Planes, BOMBS etc before I went to the Airport at my Group Home Computer. It was his D&D employee.. So, The Same he did in Phoenix.. He works with a Local mosque and Church. The Same of what I have seen Prior in MA and MD. The Mosque leader he works is a SUDANESE or Somali Heritage Muslim IMAM. Then his Church is the same.. and they all support NGO called " WORLD VISION".. He driven the same car, and License Plate which I have seen parked at a Local mosque since I arrived then at a Local HUGE African American Church in DownTown Phoenix at the Handicap parking... I couldn't believe my eyes. What I feel now is that.. Christian Missionaries is losing their funds and bates, they have Ganged up with this IRANIAN KHOMENI CREATED, Islamic- Tablig Jamat to Ruin the World...
and for their own GOOD. If there is CHAOS in town their business will grow, Like Stalk market Manipulation.

It will soon destroy what is left of Muslim Heritage still in IRAQ, PERSIA, DAMASCUS . or the Red Sea Area. Man.. It happen before to.. the WAR between, ROMAN Catholics and Muslims.. POWER.. Mohammed brought Peace in Jerusalem. They Call themselves Muslims, but they do not follow Mohammed Rules and Laws for the Society. They want SARIA .. so they can make Investment Fraud, Business Fraud, real Estate Fraud..

I was followed throughout the TOWN by this VIKER MUSLIM Knight.. to everywhere.. he has paid member from a Street gang " Black Panther"... A Muslim man wanted to offer me a JOB.. he need help, I am looking for JOB.. I could not have his life risk.. What if.. this VIKER
Killed him for helping me..

I live in Fear for my life since December 2014 what I have been seen in Muslims in the USA now then even 3/4 years ago..