[JoeT777]

ClassyT it is true, Christ does not want division within His follwers which would be the fellowship of members within HIS church.

His bride, do you means new Jerusalem?

The idea is that His follower believe in Him and walk in His footsteps. No division in doing it HIS Way because He is the Way.

The Bride of Christ is the Church, that is the Roman Catholic Church.

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT,
Yes, that is true.
The Church is the bride and Christ Jesus is the groom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

JoeT777

The Bride of Christ is the Church, that is the Roman Catholic Church.

Then what about the other Churches?

I don’t know; what about them? You might read this (it’s on this forum and part of this debate):

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post2210169

They are not the Bride?

It would be called polygamy for a man to have more than one wife, which of course is opposed to scripture. What kind of a God would demand an unyielding fidelity and yet be a polygamist? So, as a man has only one wife, so too is their only One Bride of Christ.


JoeT

[classyT]

Yo, Joe, give me the verse in the Bible for the Roman Catholic Church being the Bride. When I asked for the verse, I mean from the BIBLE written by men inspired by GOD?. come on now, remember?? The one that has 66 books... starts with Genesis... ends with Revelation? Because THAT Bible, says the Bride is the entire BODY of believers.

:)

[JoeT777]

Now who's being grumpy? I didn't know you wanted verses from the Bible, you do recall I'm not bound to strictly the bible, or to just 66 books. Nevertheless, let's see if I can show you from the bible-only view point.


First, Catholics hold that 'The Bride of Christ' is a metaphorical view of the union of Christ with His Church; that is just like the marriage union between a man and his bride. The children from this mystical union are the faithful.

The Bride of Christ

Apocalypse 21:9-10: And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he took me up in spirit to a great and high mountain: and he shewed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Ephesians 5:22-33: Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:



That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.


For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14: For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. For the body also is not one member, but many.

One Body, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church.

Matthew 9:15: And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast.

Children of the Bridgroom are the faithful

Mark 2:19: And Jesus saith to them: Can the children of the marriage fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

John: 3:26-30: And they came to John, and said to him: Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou gavest testimony, behold he baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered, and said: A man cannot receive any thing, unless it be given him from heaven. You yourselves do bear me witness, that I said, I am not Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, who standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.

The friend of the bridegroom is John

Emphasis is mine.


JoeT - Grump himself.

[arcura]

ClassyT,
The bible uses the name "The Church" with Peter as the first leader.
Later, after biblical times other people estanblished what THEY called to be a church. Most of them were very heretical and some where very inaccuate.
So "The Church" added the name "Catholic" to indicate that it was and is the true universal Church.
That is how The Catholic Church came to be known world wide.
That info can be found in just about any actual, authentic, history on the subject.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[DG]

Yeah just like fish isn't meat.

[450donn]

MODERATOR PLEASE close this ridiculous thread. JoeT and others have degraded it to a Catholics only club and the rest of us are no longer Christians. I for one am insulted!

[JoeT777]

MODERATOR PLEASE close this ridiculous thread. JoeT and others have degraded it to a Catholics only club and the rest of us are no longer Christians. I for one am insulted!

I can't say what the moderator will do or not, either way I have brought significant and meaningful material to answer Fred's question which was as follows:

It seems to me that there may be several reasons why Jesus established The Church. How many reasons can you think of as to why he did?

I established that Christ did commission one and only one Church,

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post2220650

I explained who made-up the Body of Christ.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post2222632

And among other sundry issues, I explained why John 6 concerned the 'Real Presence'

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post2209063

It's very likely these views were not met kindly by a great many people, nevertheless they were legitimate arguments. Many, chose not to answer Fred's question directly, rather they found fault that a Catholic should post a view counter to theirs. Nobody has shown the error of my statements as of yet. All are invited to continue to inspect my posts for Catholic errors. I will be happy to continue to discuss them. However, If there is anybody who should cry foul, it should be the Catholics. If there was insult, I'd suggest that those insults are result of prejudices that produce a false sense indignity for argument's sake.

I argued my case with straightforward reasoning, fairly and honestly, without insult. When I didn't agree, I said so, without ad hominem and with supporting views from other Catholics, usually from antiquity. What I also did, when possible, was to provided insight to malformed statements by others; again, without name calling, or whining about the fact that Protestants were allowed to post their opinions.

But, I'll make you a deal; I will not submit a single post, ever again if you, 450donn, will simply ask me to withdraw, here in this open thread – I don't do the PM thing so it needs to be here. No, questions asked, I'll simply never submit a post again; all your Catholic problems will be over.


JoeT

[450donn]

The Bride of Christ is the Church, that is the Roman Catholic Church.

JoeT

JoeT Like I said comments like this are an insult. I have also made insults toward the RCC here before and I regret those comments. Maybe you do to, maybe not. But if this is your belief maybe you need to sit down and rethink your position. You claimed that the RCC is the bride of Christ excluding all others. So explain how you can come to that and still believe in the ONLY one true word of God. In other words the Bible?

[classyT]

Now who’s being grumpy? I didn’t know you wanted verses from the Bible, you do recall I’m not bound to strictly the bible, or to just 66 books. Nevertheless, let’s see if I can show you from the bible-only view point.


First, Catholics hold that ‘The Bride of Christ’ is a metaphorical view of the union of Christ with His Church; that is just like the marriage union between a man and his bride. The children from this mystical union are the faithful.

The Bride of Christ

Apocalypse 21:9-10: And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he took me up in spirit to a great and high mountain: and he shewed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Ephesians 5:22-33: Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:



That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.


For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14: For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. For the body also is not one member, but many.

One Body, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church.

Matthew 9:15: And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast.

Children of the Bridgroom are the faithful

Mark 2:19: And Jesus saith to them: Can the children of the marriage fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

John: 3:26-30: And they came to John, and said to him: Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou gavest testimony, behold he baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered, and said: A man cannot receive any thing, unless it be given him from heaven. You yourselves do bear me witness, that I said, I am not Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, who standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.

The friend of the bridegroom is John

Emphasis is mine.


JoeT - Grump himself.

LOL... now grumpy Joe... I put a :) and the end of my post... sos I didn't appear to be a grouch.. so there. Ha ha

You listed verses in the Bible( that I am BOUND only to) but I never noticed the roman catholic church being mentioned... just the church.. which includes me. Why? Because I am a believer in Christ and his finished work on the cross. In all honesty, I never knew much about the Roman Catholic church until I got on this website. I am part of the body dude... sorry. I may be the armpit to you... lol... but I am THERE. :)


Fred,

I just don't believe that the Catholic church is the bride of Christ.. I believe it includes ALL believers, yes EVEN the catholics that believe. :)
Hope you are doing well by the way and your pain has subsided!!

[arcura]

I do not like that, Joe.
You are entitled to post here and on other threads just like the many other Christians who post here, and there are many, at times, from several different denominations, all Christians.
If a person is not a Catholic does not ever mean or suggest that they are not Christians.
I think that and do admire several here who are not Catholic who are very good Christians to my point of view and I think that is true of others here.
This thread has produced a lot of good thoughtful answers and I do hope it continues to do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

JoeT Like I said comments like this are an insult. I have also made insults toward the RCC here before and I regret those comments. Maybe you do to, maybe not. But if this is your belief maybe you need to sit down and rethink your position. You claimed that the RCC is the bride of Christ excluding all others. So explain how you can come to that and still believe in the ONLY one true word of God. In other words the Bible?

I don’t make deliberate insults, but I have rightly been accused of being cynical. Cynicism I do well, it’s just part of what makes me JoeT.

I have already explained how the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ. It is an exclusive ‘club’, but one that has open doors and excludes nobody that is willing to discipline themselves in her doctrines. The simple reason is that there can only be one ‘One True Church of Jesus Christ’ – He only started One Church, and He didn’t really ‘start’ it.

I’ll agree my posts are crude, so I’ll try to outline Catholic understanding of ‘Church’ again for your benefit. I can’t stress this enough, the claim I make isn’t mine, it’s belongs to the 2,000 years of the Catholic faithful; from Christ’s mouth, to the Apostles ear, from Bishop to Bishop, finally reaching me across a distance of two-millennia and half a globe. It’s also found in ‘right reasoning’ in the faith. This is a disciplined way of thinking or reasoning that keeps the faith within the confines of doctrine thereby assuring an objective faith (a faith rooted in God’s absolute Truth). Many Protestants claim Catholics are ‘indoctrinated’, i.e. brainwashed. This, at least in my case, is far from the truth. Instead what Catholic doctrine does is allow one to explore the Truth in matters of morals and faith. The discipline prevents the human tendency to slip into relativism and rationalism. It’s from here that you’ve heard me make the claim that the only way one can literally have sola-scriptura is to do it with Catholic Tradition; because, outside of her organizational rules, the doctrine of faith is strictly Scriptural. And since God’s Truth is immutable, that Truth doesn’t change – we can come to understand it better, but we can’t ‘re-truth’ it.

KINGDOM OF GOD

• Kingdom of God given to Moses, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), Remember, Moses spoke to God ‘face to face’ – who else in biblical history talked to God ‘face to face’?

• Kingdom in the Messianic age that even kings will serve and obey (Psalm 21:28 sq.; 2:7-12; 116:1; Zechariah 9:10). (Micah 4:1-2) “(Zechariah 14:8)

• Prophecies in the Old Testament tell of a future Kingdom holding the authority in the rule of the Messiah; Psalms 2 and 71; Isaiah 9:6 sq.

• Christ takes Moses’ Seat Luke 4:21

• THE KING IS HERE is the proclamation, one greater than the Temple. (Matt 12:6). Lord over the Sabbath (Luke 6:5).

• Perpetuation of the Law (Luke 16:16; cf. Matthew 4:23; 9:35; 13:17; 21:43; 24:14; Mark 1:14; Luke 4:43; 8:1; 9:2, 60; 18:17).

• Taken from the Jew and given to the Twelve: “Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.” (Matt 21:43-44).

• The Kingdom of God is represented by the Apostles within the former Kingdom Luke 17: 20-21. Luke 17:21 seqq is Christ is establishing His Kingdom, not so much as within each of us, but in the middle of Judaism with His first Saints; the Twelve.

• The appointment of an earthly head Matthew 16, the Commissioning of the Church Matthew 28. Everywhere you look in Scripture there is a reference to ‘Kingdom of God,’ ‘Kingdom of Heaven’, and ‘Kingdom of the Father,’ and other similar constructs. Well over 100 references to the establishment of, the training of, the commissioning of, the rules and regulations for a living body, i.e. the Living Church of Christ.

The more I study the connective verses on ‘Kingdom of God’ and the more I read of the Early Fathers, I find that this is precisely what Christ’s mission was; to take the seat of Moses and rule over God’s Church through Peter's Seat.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

LOL...now grumpy Joe...I put a :) and the end of my post... sos I didn't appear to be a grouch.. so there. ha ha

You listed verses in the Bible( that I am BOUND only to) but I never noticed the roman catholic church being mentioned...just the church..which includes me. Why? because I am a believer in Christ and his finished work on the cross. In all honesty, I never knew much about the Roman Catholic church until I got on this website. I am part of the body dude....sorry. I may be the armpit to you...lol...but I am THERE. :)


Fred,

I just don't believe that the Catholic church is the bride of Christ..i believe it includes ALL believers, yes EVEN the catholics that believe. :)
Hope you are doing well btw and your pain has subsided!!!

I just thought you went Smiley happy. No it doesn't say 'Catholic', nor does it say 'Trinity'. It's only a name we've come to know her by, Catholic, Roman, Western, Eastern, etc. Whatever you call it it's Christ's Church, she calls herself The Church of Jesus Christ. – Hey! It's just like when you call me Grumpy JoeT, that's not my real name, but it gets my attention!

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT,
Thanks for that clear explanation.
But it does not mean that if people are not members of the Catholic Church that they are not Christians.
I know many people who are Christians and not Catholics.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

inhisservice,
For me to answer...
I believe the Bible is the holy word of God and filled with God's truth.
I'm a Catholic and I know that a great many Catholics believe as I do.
The Catholic Church was built on and because of Bible ans what it says and in fact it is the Church that promulgated the bible what the world now uses.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[gromitt82]

Well said, JoeT!
Gromitt82

[JoeT777]

JoeT,
Thanks for that clear explanation.
But it does not mean that if people are not members of the Catholic Church that they are not Christians.
I know many people who are Christians and not Catholics.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Well, no I don't think I said "if you are not Catholic you are not Christian." And just for clarification, I’m not saying that if you are non-Catholic you are going to “the-very-bad-place”. What I am saying, and I’ve said this many times, is that the fullness of our Christian faith is found in Catholicism. This isn’t the same rationalism that some seem to have, that one faith is as good as another; rather it looks to recognize God’s Truth wherever you might find it and to reason in that Truth. In matters of faith and morals we can find many Christian Truths in Protestantism, you can find some of God’s Truth in Buddhism, and I suppose you could even find some of God’s Truth in atheism. That Truth is immutable, can never change and it is universal (not just for Catholics, not just for Christians, etc); His promises to man are irrevocable. God’s New Covenant in Christ is the fullness of that Truth insofar as man is able to comprehend, but the entirety of God’s known Truth doesn’t reside in a book. He placed that Truth in what we call today as the Catholic Church, thus she, and she alone, contains that Truth insofar as we men are able to understand. She produced Scripture in her Tradition of that Truth. We weren’t given a book-only, we weren’t given an unseen faith-only, or grace-only, or Christ-only, or glory-only, but rather an organization to minister with those Truths, faiths, graces, commandments revealed by Christ, and the ‘Real Presence of Christ.’ e.g. “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood”.


I apologize if I gave the wrong impression in my previous post, I should have been more explicit.


JoeT

[JoeT777]

JoeT777

Some of the statements you have made are totally misunderstandings. So I thought I will have a small discussion with you.

Are you sure about my 'total misunderstanding'? Might it be that I'm Catholic because I do understand? I don't think however it would be appropriate to discuss it in this thread. Why don't you start a new thread and I'll join in – if not me, I'm sure other Catholics would be happy to discuss their 'misunderstandings' as well.

First of all do you believe that the Bible is the word of God? Do you believe that there is truth in it?

Holy Scriptures are the Holy Word of God and were written by men who were inspired by God to reveal his Truth. So as to discern Scripture from other writings we look to the authority of the Catholic Church. Thus we find that Roman Catholic Church doctrines harmonize with apostolic teachings (tradition) as well as Holy Scriptures.

Catholics hold that both Scripture and tradition are harmonious creating a foundation for an infallible rule of faith . In so doing, I'm placing my trust in God's Truths and those infallible Christ-given axiomatic Truths. Truth is immutable. If it is Truth for Peter, its Truth for us today, and it will be Truth tomorrow, it can't be destroyed. If you ever wanted to use the precepts of Solo Scriptura as the rule of faith , the only way to achieve a true understanding of Scripture, you need these eight individual principles, Scripture, Tradition, the Church, Councils, the Fathers, the Pope, miracles, and natural reasoning. Consequently, what comprises apostolic Tradition is usually taken to be papal and council decrees as the legitimate and infallible interpreter of the Bible; primarily because Scripture allocates this authority to them, i.e. the rule of faith.

Within itself, taken alone, without authentication, the Bible cannot be the sole arbiter of the rule of faith as it makes no claim of authority for itself. This is why, when speaking of doctrine, St. Augustine says, “But those reasons which I have here given, I have either gathered from the authority of the church, according to the tradition of our forefathers, or from the testimony of the divine Scriptures, or from the nature itself of numbers and of similitudes”. St. Augustine, On the Trinity


JoeT

[sndbay]

I have already explained how the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ. It is an exclusive 'club', but one that has open doors and excludes nobody that is willing to discipline themselves in her doctrines. The simple reason is that there can only be one 'One True Church of Jesus Christ' – He only started One Church, and He didn't really 'start' it.

JoeT

RRC doctrine you call it, yet the Word of God tells us : mark those that come with a doctrine that causes division or contrary to the doctrine of Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

You also say Jesus did not start His Church, yet it is written in the Word of God as "MY CHURCH" Without the corner stone there would be no beginning. Without the first begotten, first raised, the first of all.

According to the Word of God all "SCRIPTURE" is profitable as doctrine because it was the inspired word of God. We are throughly furnished by the written inspired Word of God! The man of God may is perfect by the inspired Word of God!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

This is not speaking of newly formed doctrine or a doctrine made by men, but rather the inspired Word of God.

1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and HIS doctrine be not blasphemed.

Tts 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

If you do not abide in the "One Hope" that is in One Body, One Spirit, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father then you do not abide in Christ Jesus or with HIS members that gather in unity in Christ Jesus.

Warning:
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

~in Christ