[talaniman]

This must be the longest thread ever

Visit the lounge if you want to see longest.

[pussycatman]

This stirred up so much anger in another website that I am on, answerway.com

What do you think about reincarnation. Do you believe in the possibilities that reincarnation exists and was taught in the earlier christian churches?

Thank you in advance!

Joe

I believe that all living creatures will live different lives and die different deaths, The reason for this I believe is we would not understand the suffering who/what went through before they died or the joys etc. I also believe that we remember all the knowledge of our past lives when we finally reach heaven, which heaven then would be the perfect place with the who and what's truly understanding exactly what the who and what's have gone through by having similar lives.S

[unwaitheto]

! We all must die once, Is the biblical quotation most frequently used to try and undermine the re-incarnation belief but once this quotation is interpreted in a spiritual way rather than a material way it becomes self explanatory because the truth is, since the crucifixion or more importantly since the resurrection, whosoever accepts Christ as Saviour is released from the pangs of death, liberated, no longer the slave of their past sins or (karma) no longer having to return to this earth to live and die once more. Should we not accept Christ as our Saviour (remember this is a free choice) then we remain entrapped in the ever ending vicious circle of re-incarnation through the signs of the Zodiac, or as Paul said ! You remain slaves of the ruling spirits of the universe as we have been for century after century.

[NeedKarma]

Should we not accept Christ as our Saviour (remember this is a free choice) then we remain entrapped in the ever ending vicious circle of re-incarnation through the signs of the Zodiac, or as Paul said ! You remain slaves of the ruling spirits of the universe as we have been for century after century.

Do you know anyone that has not accepted Christ and is currently caught in this vicious reincarnation circle?

[galveston]

Unwaitheto seems to accept some things from the Bible, but I call your attention to the following:

Heb 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(KJV)

According to this, you only have one chance to get it right.

You have no proof this is true, that just what you believe, which is cool

This statement only proves that you have made no serious effort to study the Bible. It is filled with prophecies that have been fulfilled to the letter, especially those concerning Messiah. The probability that all of the details of His birth, life, ministry, arrest, and crucifixion could happen by chance are so remote as to be an utter impossibility. Also, the very unity of the book itself, having been written by so many different people over such a lengthyt period is further proof of its authenticity.

[talaniman]

When I meet my maker I'll put in a good word for you and Unwaitheto, in case you come back as bugs. Is that cool enough for Ya!!

[unwaitheto]

Unwaitheto seems to accept some things from the Bible, but I call your attention to the following:

Heb 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The quote above does not say once only to die Supporting your theory, nor does it say we must die at least once supporting reincarnation. The 2 main reasons for the said verse is frstly Jesus said "
(KJV)[B]Everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die—ever (John3 v 18)
Therfore thay had to be told that they had to die once even after the resurrection of Jesus.
2ndly I f you did believe in Jesus as the Son of God then you only need to esperiance the pangs of death only the once. if not then you are reincarnated to you eathly treasure and not the heavenly one.

According to this, you only have one chance to get it right.

This is exactly what the establichment want you to believe, that is wwhatgives them the power over their flock

I believe that all living creatures will live different lives and die different deaths, The reason for this i believe is we would not understand the suffering who/what went through before they died or the joys etc. I also believe that we remember all the knowledge of our past lives when we finally reach heaven, which heaven then would be the perfect place with the who and whats truly understanding exactly what the who and whats have gone through by having simalar lives.S

Support for reincarnation
1Sam ch2 v 6 The LORD brings death and gives life; (L)
He sends [some] to Sheol, and He raises [others] up. (M)

7 The LORD brings poverty and gives wealth; (N)
He humbles and He exalts. (O)

8 He raises the poor from the dust (P)
And lifts the needy from the garbage pile. (Q)
He seats them with noblemen (R)
And gives them a throne of honor. [a]
For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; (S)
He has set the world on them. (

[Morganite]

The bible is a book written by man. There fore it is not perfect.

The Bible is actually a whole library of books. However, you are correct when you say it is not perfect, but remember that it does not claim to be perfect. Biblical inerrantists are in the same league as flat-earthers.

M:)

The Bible is the truth but you are right it has been rewritten to benefit man and his politics thru the ages. I believe it is based on the truth. Have you ever read much about Elijah and Elisha in Kings!!? Great story.

Some of the Bible is the truth, but the erroneous parts are not the truth.

M:)

Only God and Jesus. (were perfect).

And my wife's first husband!

M:)

JK

[galveston]

See Unwaitheto's post:
I did not comment on the passage from Heb. 9:27 as appears in the post, I only referenced it.
It is a real stretch to assign reincarnation ideas to the passages quoted from 1 Sam 2:6.
Look at the original question again. Jesushelper asks 3 things. One, do you believe in reincarnation? Two, do you believe in the possibilities that reincarnation exists? Three, was it taught in the earlier Christian churches?
Questions one and two may be answered any way you please, because it calls for opinion, and we all possess that!
Question three is a different matter. Some of you out there object to scripture quotations, but consider this; the early church believed what the Apostles taught. In order to determine what they taught, we have only one source, and that is the Bible. The New Testament was written mostly by the original Apostles, and entirely by those of that first generation of believers. So, to answer the third question, you are forced to go to the Bible whether you want to or not.

[Sentra]

galveston disagrees: Why not point it out? If its wrong, its wrong!

Who is to say it is, or isn't? We all have our opinions, and they reside in places other than this thread.

[Morganite]

Should we not accept Christ as our Saviour then we remain entrapped in the ever ending vicious circle of re-incarnation through the signs of the Zodiac, or as Paul said ! You remain slaves of the ruling spirits of the universe as we have been for century after century.

You perspective from a Christian and biblical point of view is a travesty of Christian teaching that owes more to paganism than to Christian belief and teachings. While you are free to disagree with Christian and biblical teaching on any point, you must not mangle what is taught and believed into something that is not taugtht, was never taught, and has never been believed b y Christians who base their beliefs on the Bible.

M:)RGANITE

.

[DrJ]

Some of the Bible is the truth, but the erroneous parts are not the truth.

M:)

And how does one determine what of the Bible is erroneous and what is not? Listen to the Church? The very people who have stained the pages of the Bible?

You perspective from a Christian and biblical point of view is a travesty of Christian teaching that owes more to paganism than to Christian belief and teachings. While you are free to disagree with Christian and biblical teaching on any point, you must not mangle what is taught and believed into something that is not taugtht, was never taught, and has never been believed b y Christians who base their beliefs on the Bible.

MRGANITE

This is quite untrue and is a belief that is taught and believed by many... and is completely based on the Bible. What you call travesty is nothing but a different interpritation of your version.

How is this belief NOT based on the Bible?

[Morganite]

I have read that certain early Christians did believe in reincarnation, most notably in "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche. Also in the book is the most compelling documented evidence of possible rebirth or reincarnation -- a well known story about an Englishman named Arthur Flowerdew.

There have been several attempts to show that early Christians believed in reincarnation, and one has even suggested that reincarnation is supported by some writings found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The truth is that reincarnation has not been taught nor believed by Christians who have adhered to the central tenets of Christianity, and the efforts some have made to make it appear as if they did are flawed because they are based on an imperfect understanding of the Christian “journey of the soul” and continuous cycles of rebirth that are the proper meaning of reincarnation.

Some Christian language could lead the unwary astray, but when it is explained as it is and always has been understood by Christians then the supposed similarities between reincarnation and Christian teachings vanish like morning mists at noon.

That some thought John the Baptists to be Elijah returned from the dead should not be taken to signify that Christians believed in reincarnation, nor that Jews (who were the ones making the speculative determination as to who John the Baptist might be) believed in reincarnation. While it might be true that individual Christians and Jews might have had personal belief in rebirth in another body as another identity, that has never been part of the normative teaching of either faith.

The notable case of Arthur Flowerdew is a prime example of one who, we may suppose, was a Christian who ‘remembered’ a former life. This has supplied ammunition to some who wish to make a connection between Christianity and reincarnation, but it is an unreliable test, and is no more a reliable indice of what Christianity has believed than taking the case of a Christian who murders his wife and children and on the strength of his acts calling murder a principle of Christianity.

Other biblical passages have been quoted in support of a belief in reincarnation, but when their context is known, the erroneously perceived ‘connection’ goes away.

The Bible does hint many times at pre-existence, but not at mortal existence, rather a pre-mortal existence from which the spirit or soul comes to earth for a period and at death leaves the body to return to God and to await the resurrection, at which time the dead body is revivified by receiving again its spirit but in a changed and permanent condition. Thus, biblical understanding is of a time line continuum that is not circular, and in which the personality of the individual is neither subsumed nor destroyed, and immortal spirits are nor recycled through several incarnation, but are on an eternal journey that passes through mortality once on its way to becoming a resurrected immortal.

Jesus’ statement that to see and enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again has no connection with reincarnation whatever the semantics sound like. Balingenesis in this context is to change the self and become what Paul called ‘ a new creature.’ This is not achieved through rebirths but by improving the self and conforming one’s life to the pattern and standard determined by God and Jesus, and by emulating them through obedience to their teachings and commandments.

Some believe that some Gnostics, Valentinians, Ophites and Ebionites, etc. included reimbodiment among their teachings. Yet others believe that the Church Fathers, including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen taught reincarnation or one or another aspect of reimbodiment. One can only accept that by misunderstanding what they wrote and what they believed. Their works are available to disabuse the careful reader of any such idea.

Others have misunderstood what Synesius wrote in a prayer: "Father, grant that my soul may merge into the light, and be no more thrust back into the illusion of earth." His reference, as attested by his other works along similar lines, is to self-improvement towards what Aquinas called the “Imitation of Christ.” It has no connection with reincarnation.

Origen's teaching of the pre-existence (not reincarnation) of man’s immortal spirit has persisted although some of its original parameters have been changed, notably the starting point of its existence, and modern Christianity is unable to agree when the life of the spirit of man begins.

Henry More’s essay The Immortality of the Soul has been charged with teaching reincarnation, when it does no such thing.

I would sing the Prae-existency
Of humane souls, and live once o'er again
By recollection and quick memory
All that is past since first we all began.
But all too shallow be my wits to scan
So deep a point and mind too dull to clear
So dark a matter,


Tell what we mortalls are, tell what of old we were.
A spark or ray of the Divinity
Clouded in earthly fogs, yclad in clay,
A precious drop sunk from Aeternitie,
Spilt on the ground, or rather slunk away.

More writes: "there was never any philosopher that held the soul spiritual and immortal but he [also] held also that it did pre-exist."

An interesting subject.

MRGANITE

[Morganite]

In some of the books taken out of the Bible they spoke of reincarnation. I wonder why they left those books out of the Bible when they revised it.

On what grounds do you make this statement? I'd appreciate knowing your sources for this.

M:)

[unwaitheto]

And how does one determine what of the Bible is erroneous and what is not? Listen to the Church?? The very people who have stained the pages of the Bible?



This is quite untrue and is a belief that is taught and believed by many... and is completely based on the Bible. What you call travesty is nothing but a different interpritation of your version.

How is this belief NOT based on the Bible?

I would just like to mention that Christmas is derived from paganism so is Easter and Sunday is self explanatory from the pagan sun worship. There are many other so called Christian celebrations can be attributed to the Romans and paganism.
That is why it is important for us to do as Jesus said: Seek and you shall find and Knock and it will be opened to you. The Church is not responsible for our souls, we are.

[8Powell8]

If you look at it from the quantum physics side: reincarnation IS possible. There are many scientific books and many people have written their experience of it.

If you think of consciousness/soul/beings all there is and all infinite, when u die and reincarnate all you are doing is following a cycle. The cycle of life, of beingness. I don't know or have a way of knowing if you will come back as u are now, but it is your decision to come back if so you wish. It is all about what the higher being decides to do, since you are a part of it and it is a part of you.

all life is about experience and experience is all there is. If you put it in a way that we are part of God; the part of God that is NOT God so God can be God. In other words, if you see things as one thing stretched into 2 sides: God at the top, humans at the bottom. Is still the same thing, just 2 side of it (like a coin).

So reincarnation, for ME, is not u dying and coming back as the same spirit in the same knowledge and identity you have now. It is to return to the infinite Essence and come back as another expression of this.

We are all One.

~Peace & Namaste~

[nadiamike]

It makes sense to me, given what i read and know about reincarnation

[8Powell8]

In reference to the Bible, I think that religion and religious people put way too much attention about what the Bible says, not what Jesus said.

If you go back to the essential message, Jesus taught Love.
He showed how he could be Love above all the negativity that was throw against him.
He talked about how the "Kingdom of Heaven is Within."
He said "Be still and know that I'm there"

I think that the teachings have been lost in the discussion of whether is truth or not. I think that in order to something to be true there must be evidence supporting the statement. Most of the things in the bible are very possible not truth (in my opinion) because you can't prove them, but you can always PROVE Jesus' statements by applying them into your life.

Meditate, quiet your mind, be still, and you will find God. God is in every, and you as a son of God, you are God.
Practice Love, practice random acts of kindness, just for the pure pleasure of doing something Lovefull.

Love is not a small line in the emotions spectrum, Love is ALL of the spectrum, the positive and the negative. You cannot know one side without knowing the other. So don't limit your Love to those who "deserve" it, because the more you give, the more you are.

*** On the reincarnation books of the bible: didn't Jesus come back from the dead, wouldn't that be considered reincarnation?
Also, the Judas book has come to light in recent time, although it has been quieted by "they," but that book is filled with wisdom beyond most of what the typical King James bible has to offer. I recommend you search for information on that.

[galveston]

In reference to the Bible, I think that religion and religious people put way too much attention about what the Bible says, not what Jesus said.

If you go back to the essential message, Jesus taught Love.
He showed how he could be Love above all the negativity that was throw against him.
He talked about how the "Kingdom of Heaven is Within."
He said "Be still and know that I'm there"

I think that the teachings have been lost in the discussion of whether is truth or not. I think that in order to something to be true there must be evidence supporting the statement. Most of the things in the bible are very possible not truth (in my opinion) because you can't prove them, but you can always PROVE Jesus' statements by applying them into your life.

Meditate, quiet your mind, be still, and you will find God. God is in every, and you as a son of God, you are God.
Practice Love, practice random acts of kindness, just for the pure pleasure of doing something Lovefull.

Love is not a small line in the emotions spectrum, Love is ALL of the spectrum, the positive and the negative. You cannot know one side without knowing the other. So don't limit your Love to those who "deserve" it, because the more you give, the more you are.

*** On the reincarnation books of the bible: didn't Jesus come back from the dead, wouldn't that be considered reincarnation?
Also, the Judas book has come to light in recent time, although it has been quieted by "they," but that book is filled with wisdom beyond most of what the typical King James bible has to offer. I recommend you search for information on that.

Your last paragraph is really wild! How did you confuse reincarnation with resurrection? Who supposedly wrote the gospel of Judas? He certainly did not. He committed suicide about the same time Jesus was crucified. Baby birds swallow anything dropped into their mouths. Let's be a little smarter than birds.

[Morganite]

[quote=8Powell8]
8Powell9

In reference to the Bible, I think that religion and religious people put way too much attention about what the Bible says, not what Jesus said.

Much of what Jesus said is in the Bible, so you cannot pay attention to one without paying attention to the other.

If you go back to the essential message, Jesus taught Love.

Jesus taught love, but also much more. In addition to teaching people to love their neighbours, Jesus taught mankind what it must do to obtain eternal life. While love was part of that, it was not all of it.

He showed how he could be Love above all the negativity that was throw against him.
He talked about how the "Kingdom of Heaven is Within."

Jesus said the kingdom of heaven was at hand – meaning that he was and represented the kingdom. He also said hi kingdom was ‘not of this world.’

He said "Be still and know that I'm there"

It is elohiym who said “Be still, and know that I am God.”

I think that the teachings have been lost in the discussion of whether is truth or not. I think that in order to something to be true there must be evidence supporting the statement. Most of the things in the bible are very possible not truth (in my opinion) because you can't prove them, but you can always PROVE Jesus' statements by applying them into your life.

Almost every other spiritual principle in the Bible can be subjected to the same test.

Meditate, quiet your mind, be still, and you will find God. God is in every, and you as a son of God, you are God.

Job asked: Canst thou by searching find out God? Jesus gave out some advice on ‘finding’ God:

yhvh said: If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


Practice Love, practice random acts of kindness, just for the pure pleasure of doing something Lovefull.

Love alone, while it will bless the giver as well as the recipient, does not satisfy the requirements that Jesus taught must be obeyed.


Love is not a small line in the emotions spectrum, Love is ALL of the spectrum, the positive and the negative. You cannot know one side without knowing the other. So don't limit your Love to those who "deserve" it, because the more you give, the more you are.

Love is not the sum of all the emotions. Love knows nothing of hatred, greed, jealousy, envy, covetousness, prejudice, etc, etc, etc. Christian love is caritas, the pure love of Christ and has none of these negative and destructive elements in it.

*** On the reincarnation books of the bible: didn't Jesus come back from the dead, wouldn't that be considered reincarnation?

Most definitely not. There is a qualitative difference between resurrection and reincarnation that cannot be reconciled.

Also, the Judas book has come to light in recent time, although it has been quieted by "they,"

THEY? It is readily available from booksellers – if you mean the spurious pseudeppigraphic Gospel of Judas – so how has anyone “quieted” it?

For example: AMAZON.com - The Gospel of Judas (Hardcover)
by National Geographic Society (Author), Bart D. Ehrman (Commentary), Rodolphe Kasser (Editor), Marvin Meyer (Editor), Gregor Wurst (Editor)
(66 customer reviews)
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From Nat Geographic: wwww.shop.nationalgeographic.com - The Gospel of Judas Book
Published for the first time since it was condemned as heresy by early church leaders, the Gospel of Judas is told from the perspective of Judas Iscariot, history's ultimate traitor. However, the Judas that emerges in this volume is a hero, not a villain. The gospel has been translated from its original Coptic into clear prose and is accompanied by commentary that explains its fascinating history in the context of the early church, offering a whole new way of understanding the message of Jesus Christ.

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but that book is filled with wisdom beyond most of what the typical King James bible has to offer.

Such as?

If you have read it, and you must have to laud it so roundly, why not show where it is superior to the AV in, say, ten principles? I shall read your answer with interest.

Also, what on earth is ‘the typical King James’ Bible? How many versions of the King James Bible are there?

Would I be correct in assuming from the internal evidence of your post that you are unfamiliar with the inside of both the Gospel of Judas Iscariot and with the Bible?



M:)RGANITE