[deist]

The short answer to your question is YES.

The problem with your statement is that religions and/or people don't send anyone to Hell only God does! So Yes I am completely confident that I will be judged accordingly by God at the end times. Are you?

You don't believe in Allah, e.g. you believe in Yahweh. But what if you're wrong ? Then you will go to the Muslim version of hell. I'm willing to concede that if I'm wrong I could go to the Christian or Muslim version of hell. Why aren't you willing to concede it ?

[mountain_man]

You don't believe in Allah, e.g., you believe in Yahweh. But what if you're wrong ? Then you will go to the Muslim version of hell. I'm willing to concede that if I'm wrong I could go to the Christian or Muslim version of hell. Why aren't you willing to concede it ?

I don't believe I am wrong! It is as simple as that, I have experienced Him personally in the good times and bad and have seen Him do wonderfully powerful things. He indeed exists, that is what I believe.

Why would you be willing to concede anything if you believe in it?

[deist]

I don't believe I am wrong! It is as simple as that, I have experienced Him personally in the good times and bad and have seen Him do wonderfully powerful things. He indeed exists, that is what I believe.

Why would you be willing to concede anything if you believe in it?

It's obvious; if the Christian God exists, I'm going to hell. If the Muslim God exists we're both going to hell. If the Deist God exists, no one is going to hell, & there may not even be an afterlife. How do know that those wonderfully powerful things you've witnessed wasn't Allah extending you a mercy in hopes that you would see his truth ? It's all just belief really, nothing more. My belief is as good as yours. The Muslim's is just as good as mine, but they all can't be right, & maybe even none of them are right, not even the Atheist's belief or lack thereof.

[michealb]

I don't want to play by my own rules. I am willing to follow the laws of the country I'm in and even willing to follow the reasonable ethics of the country that I'm in. I don't steal. I don't cheat on my wife. I don't do others harm except in self defense. I try not to lie. Here is a big one, I have never wished that anyone be tortured for an eternity for their ideas. I have never told someone that they will be tortured for eternity. I probably am a better person than 90% of the religious folks out there as far as just general laws and ethics. I am a good person not because I fear punishment. I am a good person simply because it is the right thing to do and the more people that are good the better the chance my offspring will have.
Another thing I find interesting is that Firmbeliever and Mountain_man are both religious people but according to their perspective religion one of them will burn forever. Even though they are both certain they are right. I on the other hand try to convince you to live this life to it's fullest and longest. If there really is an angry old man in the sky you have a much better chance at picking the wrong religion than the right one since there are thousands of religions and your all convinced that there is only one correct one. It falls under the same reason I don't play the lottery sure it's only a dollar a week and if I win it's big but the chances are so low it's not worth the buck.

[michealb]

It's obvious; if the Christian God exists, I'm going to hell. If the Muslim God exists we're both going to hell. If the Deist God exists, no one is going to hell, & there may not even be an afterlife. How do know that those wonderfully powerful things you've witnessed wasn't Allah extending you a mercy in hopes that you would see his truth ? It's all just belief really, nothing more. My belief is as good as yours. The Muslim's is just as good as mine, but they all can't be right, & maybe even none of them are right, not even the Atheist's belief or lack thereof.

Done that question with mountian_man before her is the jist.

Originally Posted by michealb
What if the bible was inspired by Hades to lure you away from the worship and the truth of Zeus. Do you not think that a god is not capable of fooling man? How do you know what god inspired man to write the bible? There are so many gods that man has lost count. The point is you don't know for sure it takes faith in something impossible and you believe it because it's what your parents believed and what their parents before them believed. If you were born in a muslim house hold you would be muslim and would be talking about how the koran is the truth. This blind faith is why you can't use the bible as a historical text because once you start allowing religious text as historical fact it's a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by mountain_man
I don't agree at all... you are talking about all god's collectively as if they are one... there is only one true God and that God inspired the Bible... the Bible is so much more of an historical text than a world history testbook from college... I believe what I believe because I have personally experienced a loving and true God in my life, not from generation past... I believe what I believe because all the prophesies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the New Testament... the Bible is a seamless account written by mulitple authors that don't contradict one another and were inspired by God... you ask for proof, read, study, and pray about the Bible and you will receive the proof you need!

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...-130690-3.html

[firmbeliever]

.....
Another thing I find interesting is that Firmbeliever and Mountain_man are both religious people but according to their perspective religion one of them will burn forever. Even though they are both certain they are right.

The difference in my belief is that I am not guaranteed Heaven by default because I believe,but due to the mercy of the Almighty I maybe admitted to Heaven.

And about another who does not believe in my belief, he/she has until the moment of death and what he/she dies on is what counts and the Almighty knows what is in the hearts of men.
There are believers who will go to Hell for hypocrisy and other deeds which might negate their good deeds.

[mountain_man]

Done that question with mountian_man before her is the jist.

Originally Posted by michealb
What if the bible was inspired by Hades to lure you away from the worship and the truth of Zeus. Do you not think that a god is not capable of fooling man? How do you know what god inspired man to write the bible? There are so many gods that man has lost count. The point is you don't know for sure it takes faith in something impossible and you believe it because it's what your parents believed and what their parents before them believed. If you were born in a muslim house hold you would be muslim and would be talking about how the koran is the truth. This blind faith is why you can't use the bible as a historical text because once you start allowing religious text as historical fact its a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by mountain_man
i don't agree at all...you are talking about all god's collectively as if they are one...there is only one true God and that God inspired the Bible...the Bible is so much more of an historical text than a world history testbook from college...I believe what I believe because I have personally experienced a loving and true God in my life, not from generation past...I believe what I believe because all the prophesies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the New Testament...the Bible is a seamless account written by mulitple authors that don't contradict one another and were inspired by God...you ask for proof, read, study, and pray about the Bible and you will recieve the proof you need!

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...-130690-3.html

Well that saved some typing huh

[mountain_man]

I don't want to play by my own rules. I am willing to follow the laws of the country I'm in and even willing to follow the reasonable ethics of the country that I'm in. I don't steal. I don't cheat on my wife. I don't do others harm except in self defense. I try not to lie. Here is a big one, I have never wished that anyone be tortured for an eternity for their ideas. I have never told someone that they will be tortured for eternity. I probably am a better person than 90% of the religious folks out there as far as just general laws and ethics. I am a good person not because I fear punishment. I am a good person simply because it is the right thing to do and the more people that are good the better the chance my offspring will have.
Another thing I find interesting is that Firmbeliever and Mountain_man are both religious people but according to their perspective religion one of them will burn forever. Even though they are both certain they are right. I on the other hand try to convince you to live this life to it's fullest and longest. If there really is an angry old man in the sky you have a much better chance at picking the wrong religion than the right one since there are thousands of religions and your all convinced that there is only one correct one. It falls under the same reason I don't play the lottery sure it's only a dollar a week and if I win it's big but the chances are so low it's not worth the buck.

I believe we are all sinners and in need of a saviour! And through God's mercy and grace and Jesus sacrifice those who believe will be saved! I respect Firm for having strong beliefs and know that we have differing beliefs but God is a just and merciful God. I don't wish any torture or punishment on any man because I have been a sinner with no regard for anyone and need mercy as much as anyone erveryday.

[nigel5]

"Time is relative, so looking at death from a different perspective, "death" can be seen as a means of time travel,Without the reference frame which is time!
Therefore when you die whatever happens, (if anything will happen), will happen in an instant. "

So taking that into consideration...
"EVERYONE WHO'S DEAD AS FAR BACK AS A MILLION OR A THOUSAND YEARS AGO IS TECHNICALLY IN THE FUTURE AND ALREADY KNOW'S THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION:

Is there life after death?

Scary thought... will know it too sooner than later!! :D

[jillianleab]

Are we to assume by your answer that being educated puts you at a higher thinking or reasoning level than the Creator (God)? ALso based off this we can assume you (more educated people) know better than say people back in biblical times of what they witnessed first hand and/or experienced and recorded?

You assume a lot in this post. You assume in the existence of a creator (I know you believe in one), and the way your statement is phrased, the person it is directed at, must also believe in a creator. If they don't, you are saying that educated people believe they are at a higher thinking power or reasoning level than something they don't believe in. Are you smarter than the tooth fairy? I know I am! :)

Additionally, you reference the recorded experiences of individuals of those in biblical times... which means the bible. The only historical evidence which supports the bible is, well, the bible. And there's a lot of controversy over if it is the literal truth or complete metaphor. There's also a lot of controversy on if Jesus even existed. I'm not saying he did or didn't, just making a point here. So your second question, you are asking if educated people believe they know better than what a work of fiction says. Do you know better than what is written in Jurassic Park? I sure do.

[nigel5]

What about the dead sea scrolls?

[nigel5]

Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about the dead sea scrolls? Isn't it historical evidence :)

[nigel5]

Nash Papyrus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nash papyrus with the ten commandments?

[inthebox]

We're not going to find out we're wrong. The sad thing is you won't find out if you are wrong because you'll be dead in your grave, & you won't see Jesus come again ever. If you lived to be a thousand you'd still not live to see it. It's never going to happen. Jesus is as dead as they come, & he's dust now. And if there is life after death, which I admit is possible, when you get there you'll find out there that Jesus was not the Christ after all. There is no Messiah. We need no redemption, there is no original sin to be saved from.

Pretty dogmatic statements there.

So - do you believe in a creator who just started things out and left?




Grace and peace

[deist]

Pretty dogmatic statements there.

So - do you believe in a creator who just started things out and left?




Grace and peace

I believe God may be observing things on earth, but It doesn't intervene or interfere.

[jillianleab]

Dead Sea scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about the dead sea scrolls? Isn't it historical evidence :)

From your link (emphasis mine):

"The "Dead Sea Scrolls" comprise roughly 900 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven caves in and around the Wadi Qumran (near the ruins of the ancient settlement of Khirbet Qumran, on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea) in the West Bank. The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they include practically the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 AD, and preserve evidence of considerable diversity of belief and practice within late Second Temple Judaism."

They are historical documents in that they document religion and are very old. But they are not historical evidence as far as, "these people were alive, this happened, etc". Key word in there is: Bible.

Nash papyrus with the ten commandments?

From a different link (below, emphasis mine):

"It contains parts of the Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 20, along with some verses from Deuteronomy chapters 5 and 6. So this was not a regular Bible manuscript but a mixed text with a special purpose. It was evidently part of an instructional collection to remind a Jew of his duty to God."

Papyrus Nash

No doubt this is a significant historical document in that it is so old. But let's say you have a copy of the ten commandments framed and hanging on your wall at home. Fast forward 2,000 years - what sort of historical evidence is that when it is found? It is significant because it is old, or does it prove something other than someone in that era believed in the bible?

I'm not trying to dismiss the importance of these documents to your faith, but they don't really point to anything except "people in this era were Jewish/Christian". They don't document "The Great Flood" or the "Rising of Jesus" or "The Last Supper" or any of the important events in the bible which you (collective you) claim actually happened. And before you bring up the shroud of Turin, there is so much controversy over it's authenticity that there is no way we can debate it here and reach a reasonable conclusion.

[MoonlitWaves]

Jillian is correct. The discovery of the scrolls does not prove that the happenings written actually took place.
No matter what scientists or archaeologists find, it will never be undeniable evidenced that God exisits. God wanted us to have free will. He wants us to choose Him. To have faith that He exists without physical undeniable evidenced. If there were undeniable evidenced that God exists then that choice would be eliminated. I mean sure you could still say He doesn't exists, but that would be the same as saying the sky isn't blue on a clear day. Maybe archaeologists are searching for their piece of mind, who knows. But if they are searching to prove God's existence they are wasting their time.

[mountain_man]

You assume a lot in this post. You assume in the existence of a creator (I know you believe in one), and the way your statement is phrased, the person it is directed at, must also believe in a creator. If they don't, you are saying that educated people believe they are at a higher thinking power or reasoning level than something they don't believe in. Are you smarter than the tooth fairy? I know I am! :)

Additionally, you reference the recorded experiences of individuals of those in biblical times... which means the bible. The only historical evidence which supports the bible is, well, the bible. And there's a lot of controversy over if it is the literal truth or complete metaphor. There's also a lot of controversy on if Jesus even existed. I'm not saying he did or didn't, just making a point here. So your second question, you are asking if educated people believe they know better than what a work of fiction says. Do you know better than what is written in Jurassic Park? I sure do.

To respond to my post with comparisons like the "tooth fairy" and "Jurasic Park" come on! You are really stretched for debate.

[jillianleab]

To respond to my post with comparisions like the "tooth fairy" and "Jurasic Park" come on! you are really stretched for debate.

I'm not trying to make you angry or offend you, I'm trying to make a point (and use a little humor! :rolleyes: ). My intent is to make you think about your post in a different light. To you, god is real, but to an atheist, he is nothing more than the tooth fairy. To you, the bible is the inspired word of god, to an atheist, it is a book of fiction, similar to Jurassic Park. I didn't mean to offend you, only to make you consider what you wrote from a different perspective.

[nigel5]

From your link (emphasis mine):

"The "Dead Sea Scrolls" comprise roughly 900 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible, discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven caves in and around the Wadi Qumran (near the ruins of the ancient settlement of Khirbet Qumran, on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea) in the West Bank. The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they include practically the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 AD, and preserve evidence of considerable diversity of belief and practice within late Second Temple Judaism."

They are historical documents in that they document religion and are very old. But they are not historical evidence as far as, "these people were alive, this happened, etc". Key word in there is: Bible.



From a different link (below, emphasis mine):

"It contains parts of the Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 20, along with some verses from Deuteronomy chapters 5 and 6. So this was not a regular Bible manuscript but a mixed text with a special purpose. It was evidently part of an instructional collection to remind a Jew of his duty to God."

Papyrus Nash

No doubt this is a significant historical document in that it is so old. But let's say you have a copy of the ten commandments framed and hanging on your wall at home. Fast forward 2,000 years - what sort of historical evidence is that when it is found? It is significant because it is old, or does it prove something other than someone in that era believed in the bible?

I'm not trying to dismiss the importance of these documents to your faith, but they don't really point to anything except "people in this era were Jewish/Christian". They don't document "The Great Flood" or the "Rising of Jesus" or "The Last Supper" or any of the important events in the bible which you (collective you) claim actually happened. And before you bring up the shroud of Turin, there is so much controversy over it's authenticity that there is no way we can debate it here and reach a reasonable conclusion.

Am afraid I have to agree with your argument... because its well organized and sticks to facts. Good job.