[NeedKarma]

I mean i am Italianand my friends discriminate against gays all the time

So why are you still friends with them?

[BMI]

What does that mean? Is it to suggest that because I am friends with them I am like them, or that the BIble would tell me to not be friends with them. Actually you may be right, my friends are idiots, but I'm not perfect and neither is anyone.

I could hang around anyone and find fault, just likethey can in me, humans are not perfect, we can't be, otherwise we would beGod.

[mountain_man]

Don't need the bible for that. You don't need a book to tell you not to murder or commit adultery. My wife cuts her hair and wears pants, all such women in the world would be called apostates under your idea.

Where did you get that?!

[NeedKarma]

Where did you get that?!!!!!!

You don't have Pentacosts where you are? They are strict christians like yourself.
More here for ya: Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[mountain_man]

You don't have Pentacosts where you are? They are strict christians like yourself.
More here for ya: Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are talking about a religious belief not a biblical based belief... very very different my friend. Find that in the bible?

[Synnen]

So... Incest is okay, then, right? Since Lot lay down with his daughters and all that jazz.

And so is making sure a guy gets killed because you covet his wife, right? Didn't David arrange Uriah's death so he could hook up with Bathsheba?

Let's not even TALK about the great Jezebel---makeup makes you a whore, did you know that?

And bigamy--wouldn't that be okay then too?

The Golden Rule is great. The rest of it (what's left after political moves that removed parts of it so that they could take power away from others and give it to themselves) is pure sophistry.

What I'm trying to say is that there are some really great ideas in the Bible---but there are also some really horrible ones. Women shouldn't be subjugated because the Bible says so. Blacks shouldn't be slaves because Ham or Shem or whoever looked at a drunk Noah and laughed his rear end off. Gays shouldn't be ostricized because of the sins of 2 ancient cities that don't even exist anymore.

The only line in the Bible I truly love, and the line which is MOST ignored is this: Judgement is mine, saith the Lord.

[NeedKarma]

You are talking about a religious belief not a biblical based belief...very very different my friend. Find that in the bible?

Every single christian denomination claims to follow the bible.

[startover22]

So...Incest is okay, then, right? Since Lot lay down with his daughters and all that jazz.

And so is making sure a guy gets killed because you covet his wife, right? Didn't David arrange Uriah's death so he could hook up with Bathsheba?

Let's not even TALK about the great Jezebel---makeup makes you a whore, did you know that?

And bigamy--wouldn't that be okay then too?

The Golden Rule is great. The rest of it (what's left after political moves that removed parts of it so that they could take power away from others and give it to themselves) is pure sophistry.

What I'm trying to say is that there are some really great ideas in the Bible---but there are also some really horrible ones. Women shouldn't be subjugated because the Bible says so. Blacks shouldn't be slaves because Ham or Shem or whoever looked at a drunk Noah and laughed his rear end off. Gays shouldn't be ostricized because of the sins of 2 ancient cities that don't even exist anymore.

The only line in the Bible I truly love, and the line which is MOST ignored is this: Judgement is mine, saith the Lord.

Very well put Synn, this is the one of the many reasons I have a hard time with my faith...
Something's we can apply, and something's we just cannot in this day and age. My friend, I am glad you know how to use these words and I take value in them.

[startover22]

Every single christian denomination claims to follow the bible.

CLAIMS TO FOLLOW THE BIBLE... CLAIMS is the word we need to look at... doesn't mean they do. Aww crap, I keep agreeing with you, damn it!

[ordinaryguy]

I cannot comprehend the fact that some people believe that the above mentioned macro.micro patterns exist by chance.

I'm not sure who you would include in the "some people" category, but if you include astrophysicists and elementary particle physicists, I think it's a misrepresentation of current scientific thought to say that they think the macro and micro patterns of matter and energy in the observable universe arose "by chance". My understanding, as a literate but "casually informed" layman, is that they think these patterns arose through the action of a few fundamental forces acting on several forms and types of matter over a period of about 13.5 billion years since the Big Bang, i.e. the Beginning. This is quite different than saying that the current state of the cosmos came to be what it is "by chance"--quite the opposite, in fact. As to why there was a big bang at all, or what came before it, science is simply silent. Again, silence is not the same as saying that it happened "by chance". It happened, we don't know why, but given that it did, we can construct a credible story about how it has unfolded since then. If you want to attach the name "God" to the cause of the Big Bang, the supplier of the energy it released, the author of the laws of light and time, and gravity and subatomic forces, that's fine with me, and I would imagine most scientists, because they recognize that these matters are beyond the reach or the interest of science. To a scientist, figuring out how the universe works is so interesting that they hardly have the time to wonder why it exists at all.

Even if science can explain what happens when we look at something, I believe this shows the chemical reaction in our body, but science cannot explain to me how this sense of seeing came about (not just humans, but any animal (as evolutionists believe everything evolved).

As I said earlier, a "good explanation" is in the ear of the hearer. I think a lot of people dislike scientific explanations because they've really only been exposed to caricatures of them, not the thing itself. The details of scientific knowledge (physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics) are quite time consuming and laborious to learn, so not everybody cares enough to learn enough to be able to follow the explanation all the way through. Rather than go to all that work, it's often easier to just say "God did it" and go on with the business of living.

For myself, I'm quite content to have no explanation at all for any number of things. I'd rather do without one than to cling to and defend one that seems farfetched to me, whether scientific or religious in origin.

I do not believe the universe to be infinite,
It had a beginning and it will have an end.

This is consistent with scientific thought about the beginning, but I don't think there's as much consensus about the end.

I respect an atheists view to be his own choice,but I cannot even imagine myself drawing that conclusion as the “science can explain all” theory does not make sense to me.

I don't think that even all scientists believe that science can explain all, if by "all" you mean to include questions of "why things exist" as well as "how things work".

I read science and understand many things from what scientists are trying to discover by studying the universe and the living things on earth.
I cannot seem to come to the conclusion that the trees around us came about by chance and in that chance they became an organism which works within itself by producing its own food and taking up water from underground etc(I know science helps explain the process of how this works).
I cannot even conclude that for example a giraffe eats from the tops of trees because it elongated its neck to reach the part of the plant others cannot reach OR that the plant grew thorns below a certain level to protect itself from predators. But I do believe and can conclude that a certain tree was made"(by a Creator) in such a way to facilitate certain animals to easily feed on it, in turn have its seeds dispersed to various different spots…etc

So you seem to be saying that you like the scientific explanations of how trees or giraffes work, at this point in time, but you don't like the scientific explanations of how trees and giraffes came to exist at all. Well, I do agree that "scientific" explanations about how the distant past may have given rise to (i.e. caused) the present are harder to follow, harder to test, and harder to accept than those that provide explanations for what we can observe and measure in the present. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong, but it ought to make people who accept them a bit more tolerant of those who don't, at least not yet.

[firmbeliever]

Hi Ordinaryguy,
Thanks for your input on my post.

I accept science and scientists in their quest to find the how's of things work have provided for us who believe in a Higher power to be more appreciative of the intricate processes going on within our bodies and beyond.

I agree that the earth took a long time to form and that humans came many years later, before that the earth must have seen strange creatures and plants which in turn in their deaths enriched the earth with many materials which today we see as minerals and salts.

I agree that the earth must have seen asteroids crashing to earth and this would have brought about a change in the earths surface.

I also believe that ancient civilisations have come and gone and I believe some of them were more advanced in their knowledge than the present generation in the sense that they did not have the tools we have today to facilitate their studies,but still they advanced in many areas of life.Yet we only see their remenants in archeological sites.This makes me believe that each generation has their appointed time and whether we believe or not everything that has a beginning must have a end.

I also believe when scientists say that certain animal have become extinct down the ages and new species have been found.I can't say whether I totally agree with evolution of some animals, but as a whole I cannot believe in what scientists say that human beings came from apes or apelike creatures.

I do have a theory that the apelike creatures with human features that have been found could be the people Quran mentions as those who were transformed into monkeys and swine for their disbelief when truth had been revealed to them.

After reading both sides of the argument on atheism or religion I still hold firm to my beliefs in believing in a Higher Almighty Lord of all things that exists in the Universe and beyond.:)

[mountain_man]

You don't have Pentacosts where you are? They are strict christians like yourself.
More here for ya: Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First, do not infer I am of a certain "religious" belief if you do not know me and second have you found that in the Bible yet?:)

[NeedKarma]

"Not wear that which pertaineth to a man" (Deuteronomy 22:5) and "adorn [yourself] in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety" (1 Timothy 2:8-10). Men and women alike are discouraged from wearing jewelry, scripturally "gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Timothy 2:8-10).

More here: United Pentecostal church

[mountain_man]

So...Incest is okay, then, right? Since Lot lay down with his daughters and all that jazz.

And so is making sure a guy gets killed because you covet his wife, right? Didn't David arrange Uriah's death so he could hook up with Bathsheba?

Let's not even TALK about the great Jezebel---makeup makes you a whore, did you know that?

And bigamy--wouldn't that be okay then too?

The Golden Rule is great. The rest of it (what's left after political moves that removed parts of it so that they could take power away from others and give it to themselves) is pure sophistry.

What I'm trying to say is that there are some really great ideas in the Bible---but there are also some really horrible ones. Women shouldn't be subjugated because the Bible says so. Blacks shouldn't be slaves because Ham or Shem or whoever looked at a drunk Noah and laughed his rear end off. Gays shouldn't be ostricized because of the sins of 2 ancient cities that don't even exist anymore.

The only line in the Bible I truly love, and the line which is MOST ignored is this: Judgement is mine, saith the Lord.

Incest is okay, then, right? No

And bigamy--wouldn't that be okay then too? No

To understand the Bible you have to 1) take the verses and stories in context of the times and traditions 2) realize that all of your references are from the Old Testament and are very legalistic and are correct that don't apply 3) when Jesus came and died for our sins; His death literally ripped the curtain of the Old Covenant and created a New Covenant that is the New Testament 4) by understanding the Bible thoroughly one would understand that we are no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament because of Christ's death as the ultimate sacrifice for all people

There are mountains and mountains of laws and commandments in the Old Testament but the New Testament clearly states: Matthew 22

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law(emphasis added), tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."(emphasis added)

[startover22]

Mountain Man, we all take the bible in our own way, and understand it in our own way. You will never be able to tell me how to take what it says, because frankly, unless you are the man or woman writing that sentence, then you just don't know. BUT you can assume...

[BMI]

You see you can quote the Bilble and look at these words and say the Bible is telling you that you are forbidden to do this and forbidden to do that, when in reality you are not forbidden to do them. I think many read the words as they appear without giving them proper consideration or meditating upon the actual meaning of them.

The Bible, in most ways, tells you how to live a happy life, one that will bring you great happiness. Parts of the Bible mention that if you gave everything you own away you would build your treasure in heaven and be quite content with what you have. Think about it deeper, the fact thatyou wear no jewellery means you are not concerned with appearance, the fact you have no money means you can be content with what you do have and not get caught up with greed and false pride (COnrad Black as an example). The Bible offers you a way of life that in this day and age seems outdated, but it really isn't, I wager that if you did follow the Bible tooth by tooth than you would not sin as much, not be concerned about trivial things and so on.

Society has made people the way they are because people buy into it, teens and youth look to Hollywood for answers, the Bible gives you something different, a different way, a better way in my opinion. As for what is forbidden and such, don't get caught up in that so much, if you are good God will forgive, not strike you down with a bolt of lightening. There is always a deeper meaning.

[mountain_man]

mountain Man, we all take the bible in our own way, and understand it in our own way. You will never be able to tell me how to take what it says, because frankly, unless you are the man or woman writing that sentence, then you just don't know. BUT you can assume.....

I wasn't telling you how to take the Bible I was setting up an example from the Bible so you could see the point I was making... If you choose to believe the way I or other Christians do is your choice you can take it or leave it.

[startover22]

I wasn't telling you how to take the Bible I was setting up an example from the Bible so you could see the point I was making...If you choose to believe the way I or other Christians do is your choice you can take it or leave it.

Ok, thanks!

[mountain_man]

You see you can quote the Bilble and look at these words and say the Bible is telling you that you are forbidden to do this and forbidden to do that, when in reality you are not forbidden to do them. I think many read the words as they appear without giving them proper consideration or meditating upon the actual meaning of them.

The Bible, in most ways, tells you how to live a happy life, one that will bring you great happiness. Parts of the Bible mention that if you gave everything you own away you would build your treasure in heaven and be quite content with what you have. Think about it deeper, the fact thatyou wear no jewelery means you are not concerned with appearance, the fact you have no money means you can be content with what you do have and not get caught up with greed and false pride (COnrad Black as an example). The Bible offers you a way of life that in this day and age seems outdated, but it really isn't, i wager that if you did follow the Bible tooth by tooth than you would not sin as much, not be concerned about trivial things and so on.

Society has made people the way they are because people buy into it, teens and youth look to Hollywood for answers, the Bible gives you something different, a different way, a better way in my opinion. As for what is forbidden and such, don't get caught up in that so much, if you are good God will forgive, not strike you down with a bolt of lightening. There is always a deeper meaning.

NeedKarma: I can't say it better than that! Thanks BMI

[NeedKarma]

NeedKarma: I can't say it better than that! Thanks BMI

I know! I especially loved this part:

the Bible is telling you that you are forbidden to do this and forbidden to do that, when in reality you are not forbidden to do them