[ordinaryguy]

The verse says man needs the Word of God, (i.e. every word from the mouth of God).
Scripture is the Word of God.

I can easily accept that ALL Scriptures, as selected and defined by people of EVERY faith, are Words of God.

But to my mind, it is absolutely preposterous to think that ANY of these Scriptures individually, or even ALL of them collectively, are the ONLY Words God speaks into our present life and conscious experience. I want to hear ALL of God's words, especially those that call into question orthodox interpretations of this or that Scripture. As I have learned to hear and understand more Words, I have become less impressed by, and less trustful of, the makers and guardians of orthodox interpretations.

[Alty]

DeMaria, you are contradicting yourself. You say that the bible states that Jesus says we need the bible, yet the bible didn't exist yet, so how could he have said that we need something that didn't even exist? Could you explain that? :confused:

[Credendovidis]

Alt, in the bible a day does not translate into literally a 24 hr time period.

How do you know that? Have you any proof (OSE) for that? Or do you perhaps only BELIEVE that?

I don't think that the Bible is meant for anyone to take literally.

Fine ! And I as Secular Humanist agree with you on that : it is the message that counts. Unfortunately many Christians just skip precisely that : the Christian message, and replace that with church visit and lots of "hot air"...

The problem is that the creation fanatics do take the Bible literal, and it are these creationists who "create" all the disagreements with their aggressive attitude towards the Theory of Evolution, the origin of first life, the origin of the universe, based on what they BELIEVE , and not on what is factual.

:>)

.

[De Maria]

I can easily accept that ALL Scriptures, as selected and defined by people of EVERY faith, are Words of God.

Do you believe then, that God contradicts Himself? Because the various Scriptures of the various religions do so.

But to my mind, it is absolutely preposterous to think that ANY of these Scriptures individually, or even ALL of them collectively, are the ONLY Words God speaks into our present life and conscious experience.

Do any of the Scriptures make that claim? I know the Christian Scriptures don't.

I want to hear ALL of God's words, especially those that call into question orthodox interpretations of this or that Scripture. As I have learned to hear and understand more Words, I have become less impressed by, and less trustful of, the makers and guardians of orthodox interpretations.

In other words, you want to speak to God directly. That is a good and honorable thought. I suggest prayer. Pray to God and ask Him to talk to you. I sincerely believe that He will.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

DeMaria, you are contradicting yourself.

No I'm not.

You say that the bible states that Jesus says we need the bible, yet the bible didn't exist yet, so how could he have said that we need something that didn't even exist? Could you explain that? :confused:

Its very simple. "Bible" is the modern word for Scripture. And Scripture is the Word of God.

Jesus said we need the Word of God. Therefore that means that we need Scripture. If we say it in modern lingo, that means we need the Bible.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Alty]

Nope, you're still not making any sense, but I give up.

DeMaria, you are exactly the kind of Christian I've been avoiding since I got out of High school 20 years ago.

I respect your right to believe what you want, I respect your right to go to church, to worship God in your way.

I do not respect the fact that you will not even consider someone else's point of view, that to you, Christianity is the only real way to believe in God.

You've made your point very clear, and I have seen that you will fight for your religion no matter what, even if it means translating the bible to suit your purpose.

I thank you for your time, you have confirmed my beliefs more than anyone else could have, not that they needed confirmation.

You may need scripture, I do not. God is in my heart, not in a book and not in a man made church.

Good luck to you and all your endeavors. :)

[De Maria]

Nope, you're still not making any sense, but I give up.

DeMaria, you are exactly the kind of Christian I've been avoiding since I got out of High school 20 years ago.

I respect your right to believe what you want, I respect your right to go to church, to worship God in your way.

I do not respect the fact that you will not even consider someone elses point of view, that to you, Christianity is the only real way to believe in God.

You've made your point very clear, and I have seen that you will fight for your religion no matter what, even if it means translating the bible to suit your purpose.

I thank you for your time, you have confirmed my beliefs more than anyone else could have, not that they needed confirmation.

You may need scripture, I do not. God is in my heart, not in a book and not in a man made church.

Good luck to you and all your endeavors. :)

Good luck to you as well.

However, I disagree that I don't consider any other points of view. I was atheist for much of my life. And when I returned to God, I checked many religions before the wisdom of Catholicism called me back home.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Credendovidis]

I was atheist for much of my life. And when I returned to God, I checked many religions before the wisdom of Catholicism called me back home.

That only "proves" that the "converted" are the worst of all, be that ex-drinkers, ex-smokers, or ex-Atheists.

:D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :D

[ordinaryguy]

Do you believe then, that God contradicts Himself?

Yes, absolutely. It happens all the time, and none of us should be surprised by it. Who was it that said, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"? Any God worthy of the name is not going to be bound by our notions of logical consistency.

Do any of the Scriptures make that claim? I know the Christian Scriptures don't.

Well, not usually the books themselves. Mostly, it's their adherents that are so preoccupied with their claim that theirs is the ONLY Scripture, that they wouldn't notice a Word of God if it was shouted in their ear, much less discern the "still small voice".

In other words, you want to speak to God directly. That is a good and honorable thought.

I don't just want to, I do it routinely, all the time. Thank you for your approval.

[ordinaryguy]

God is in my heart, not in a book and not in a man made church.

Alty, I want to thank you for this thread. I think we are kindred spirits in this regard.

[BloodooPhineox]

I Some what agree with Altemweg I think the bible is mostly crap but there are some truthes to it like the great flood where it rained for 40 days and 40 nites the found noahs ark.

[De Maria]

Yes, absolutely. It happens all the time, and none of us should be surprised by it. Who was it that said, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"? Any God worthy of the name is not going to be bound by our notions of logical consistency.

Then keep searching.

Well, not usually the books themselves. Mostly, it's their adherents that are so preoccupied with their claim that theirs is the ONLY Scripture, that they wouldn't notice a Word of God if it was shouted in their ear, much less discern the "still small voice".

You think that God's must be a "still small voice"? Why?

I don't just want to, I do it routinely, all the time. Thank you for your approval.

You talk to God directly? There are some people to whom God responds audibly, or in dreams or in signs. Are you one of those?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ordinaryguy]

Then keep searching.

I'm not searching, I'm listening.

You think that God's must be a "still small voice"? Why?

Must be? No. But most of the time, yes, that's how I experience it. Actually, it's more like an inner conviction that I become aware of at some point in the process of contemplation.

You talk to God directly?

In a manner of speaking. Let's just say we keep in touch.

There are some people to whom God responds audibly, or in dreams or in signs. Are you one of those?

I have had a small number of dreams that might qualify, but usually it's far more low-key and less dramatic than that.

[Galveston1]

In response to questions on the OP: If you do not believe the Bible, how can you know anything about what God is like? You must have some point of reference. Of course, god is a generic term, not a name. There are literally millions of "gods" (less if considering only the major ones), each one defined by what? How can we know whether the man who has a feathered image called "god" is right or not? Does God have human form, or is He eight-armed? Is God male or female? If we reject the Bible, we can't answer these questions with any degree of certainty. Our own experiecnc is a poor guide because it is invariably influenced by our past experiences, and can be anything we choose, whether concisously or unconciously.

[Alty]

Alty, I want to thank you for this thread. I think we are kindred spirits in this regard.

Thanks for saying that. :)

So far so good, there have been a few moments when things got heated and tense, but the majority of people posting have been respectful and kind, I'm just glad that this thread is going fairly well, especially because the topic is something that most people will feel pation about, either one way or the other. ;)

I myself am firm in my belief, therefore I have to respect those that believe something else, their beliefs are just as firm as mine, and that is their right.

We may not reach a complete understanding on this thread, we may never see the other point of view and accept that it's valid, but at least we are talking about our beliefs and trying to express our points of view. For this I'm glad.

Let's try to keep this going smoothly everyone, remember, we are all human regardless of what we believe, so lets be kind even when we want to scream at someone. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm a stubborn, short tempered German. ;)

[De Maria]

I'm not searching, I'm listening.
Must be? No. But most of the time, yes, that's how I experience it. Actually, it's more like an inner conviction that I become aware of at some point in the process of contemplation.
In a manner of speaking. Let's just say we keep in touch.
I have had a small number of dreams that might qualify, but usually it's far more low-key and less dramatic than that.

That's good OG. I'm happy for you.

I wonder why you seem to oppose so vehemently those of us who believe in Christ?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ConfusedInAK]

OOOOOH one of my favorite subjects to... not discuss LOL

Here's my opinion... and we all know what those are worth. Since the beginning of what we assume to be the presence of man... there has always been a higher being or two or more that man has worshipped.

Throughout that time (what I like to call the "evolution of religion") the god(s) being worshipped changed. Some people chose to worship old god(s), new god(s) etc... and chaos arose from this.

Then man made books and in every culture there came books from which god(s) had spoken and these books contained orders on how you were to live. Though not every culture has books... of course there are tribes that have passed down their beliefs through words and stories instead... like a game of telephone.

Anyway we finally get to a time in history where the big book (the Bible) was edited... to include ONLY those books that fit what the beliefs were at the time... the other unfit books were purged and some discovered later.

And of course the old language was lost and new translations were made, etc. etc. etc.

I feel the Bible and all other religious books were originally created to gain control over parts of society MAN can not control. BUT if you tell them GOD SAID... a vast majority of the people will listen...

Without the organized religion... control over people is lost...

My 2 cents... but again... not worth much in this day and age :0)

[Wondergirl]

And of course the old language was lost and new translations were made, etc. etc. etc.

The old language waasn't lost, but the originals were.

[talaniman]

That's the part that bugs me the most, is the senseless loss of life through out the ages, and the manipulation, and control, humans use in the name of whatever god they can come up with. Using the name of god has justified some really horrible actions by man, against man. The worst part is its always about greed, money, and power. Shame.

[Alty]

OOOOOH one of my favorite subjects to .... not discuss LOL

Here's my opinion... and we all know what those are worth. Since the beginning of what we assume to be the presence of man... there has always been a higher being or two or more that man has worshipped.

Throughout that time (what I like to call the "evolution of religion") the god(s) being worshipped changed. Some people chose to worship old god(s), new god(s) etc.... and chaos arose from this.

Then man made books and in every culture there came books from which god(s) had spoken and these books contained orders on how you were to live. Though not every culture has books... of course there are tribes that have passed down their beliefs through words and stories instead... like a game of telephone.

Anywho we finally get to a time in history where the big book (the Bible) was edited... to include ONLY those books that fit what the beliefs were at the time... the other unfit books were purged and some discovered later.

And of course the old language was lost and new translations were made, etc. etc. etc.

I feel the Bible and all other religious books were originally created to gain control over parts of society MAN can not control. BUT if you tell them GOD SAID... a vast majority of the people will listen....

Without the organized religion... control over people is lost....

My 2 cents... but again... not worth much in this day and age :0)

Wow, wow, wow, love it! I'd give you a greenie if I could, in fact, here it is. :D

I agree with everything you've said, and you said it very well. I'm taking your 2 cents and holding on to it, I think it will appreciate in value, or at least I appreciate it's value. :)