[Credendovidis]

Didn't I just say that I welcome questions but the repeated statement to have I believe before the belief is annoying cause it IS belief and if others don't realize that then they can feel free to question . This is the religious discussion board.

As stated earlier : that is irrelevant. A religious statement remains a claim, and may be treated as a claim. And as such it may be questioned. No matter how often that religious statement is made.
And unless OSE is provided to support that religious statement, every such statement is open to questioning.
So nobody has to prove his/her religious statements, but than do not complain that such statements are questioned on their validity.

RELIGION = Believe IN, believe, belief Get it yet?????

I very well know what religion is. And I know the meaning of belief. I also know that never has there been any OSE for the validity of any religious claim or belief.
And as this is a DISCUSSION BOARD and not a specific religious board (as the Christianity board), every religious statement is open to questioning, specially when it suggests to have validity.
"God knows", or "God wants" are non-valid statements for everone here on this board. So preceding it with "I believe that ..." is NOT too much asked.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[Credendovidis]

Returning to the topic :

"I believe Christ died for the ungodly"

Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods. As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time. As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
How is "ungodly" defined?

:)

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[N0help4u]

As stated earlier : that is irrelevant. A religious statement remains a claim, and may be treated as a claim. And as such it may be questioned. No matter how often that religious statement is made.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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As stated earlier I did not say do not question
Did I say otherwise?

[Credendovidis]

As stated earlier I did not say do not question
Did I say otherwise?

You actually posted :

Didn't I just say that I welcome questions but the repeated statement to have I believe before the belief is annoying cause it IS belief and if others don't realize that then they can feel free to question . This is the religious discussion board.

Your "the repeated statement to have I believe before the belief is annoying" says differently.
I will not explain it again. Just look back.
This is a discussion board, and therefore ANY (religious) claim is on this board open to questioning. ALWAYS. And by ANYONE. And as often as necessary !

===

Now : once more : CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO THE TOPIC ???

:rolleyes:

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[N0help4u]

There is a difference between people questioning why you believe or what you believe or proof of what you believe
From saying that you must state I believe before you make a claim

If you don't understand the difference then no wonder the Christians keep going around and around with you on that issue!

[Credendovidis]

... From saying that you must state I believe before you make a claim ...

Unless you PROVE your statements with OSE, you must expect questioning their validity. And only "I believe that" prevents you from that from happening.
So WHO is actually causing this repetition of questioning of religious claims?

If you don't understand the difference then no wonder the Christians keep going around and around with you on that issue!

And I understand that difference very well. I also know why many Christians refuse to do that, although it is a valid request to precede religious statements with "I believe that".
So WHO is actually causing this repetition of questioning of religious claims?

===

Now : once more : CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO THE TOPIC ???

:)

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[N0help4u]

I don't know why you keep talking about questioning when I keep saying I am not talking about questions.

[tsila1777]

I'll consider it. I have 3 children for the weekend.

[Credendovidis]

I don't know why you keep talking about questioning when I keep saying I am not talking about questions.

And I don't know why you keep interfering (since #197) and delay further discussion of the topic...

:rolleyes:

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[Credendovidis]

I'll consider it. I have 3 children for the weekend.

That's fine with me. Take your time. Have a nice weekend.

:)

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[Credendovidis]

Returning to the topic :

"I believe Christ died for the ungodly"

Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods. As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time. As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
How is "ungodly" defined?

:)

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[Unknown008]

"in perfect accordance"? The Bible seems more to be one big collection of mistakes, faults, and contradictions. And all of these - accordingly to what you believe - by a deity that is omniscient, supra-natural, and perfect.

So either God's guidance was extremely poor , or God did not check if his words were recorded properly (in both cases neither a perfect nor an omniscient deity).

There have surely been diformations of the bible to lead to some of these things that you call "mistakes, faults, and contradictions", as Tsila said. I also came to know (=believe)that the Roman Catholic Bible is not a complete one and only the common passages were kept in this bible, whereas the others were kind of forgotten at that time, but were kind of retrieved. I think that you can find some of the 'lost books' on the net.

[Credendovidis]

There have surely been diformations of the bible to lead to some of these things that you call "mistakes, faults, and contradictions", as Tsila said.

Just as an indication of what I meant : there are many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible. Rather strange for a book that is claimed to be the word of the god deity that is acclaimed to be "perfect".

================================================== =============================

Please note that so far it have been theists who with repeated statements are preventing the topic discussion to continue.

Can we return now to the topic?

"I believe Christ died for the ungodly"

Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods.
As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time.
As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
And how is "ungodly" defined here?

:)

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[Unknown008]

Just as an indication of what I meant : there are many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible. Rather strange for a book that is claimed to be the word of the god deity that is acclaimed to be "perfect".

Give some examples.

[tsila1777]

[quote=Credendovidis]Just as an indication of what I meant : there are many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible. Rather strange for a book that is claimed to be the word of the god deity that is acclaimed to be "perfect".

================================================== =============================

Please note that so far it have been theists who with repeated statements are preventing the topic discussion to continue.

Can we return now to the topic?


Although I respect that statement of belief I ask myself why Jesus in that case preached in Judea, and not in locations where the "ungodly" were in the far majority.
And how is "ungodly" defined? As nonbelievers-Atheists? There were not many in Judea of the era. Most people believed in god/gods.
As non-Christians? There were no Christians at that time.
As non-Jews? But they were for sure not "ungodly".
And how is "ungodly" defined here?

:)

·[/quote)


So, did you answer yourself? I would be interested in knowing what you came up with concerning the questions you asked yourself.



: there are many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible.

Now may I ask you a question? How many times have you read the Bible, and how many hours have you studied it to come up with this belief?

Can we return now to the topic?

The topic...I believe Jesus died for the ungodly.... was a statement of what I believe.



Note the question at the bottom: If someone does not believe in salvation, that does not make it untrue. Just as believing in salvation does not make it true. And if neither can be proven then how is one to decide what to believe? If no one can prove that God does exist, and no one can prove that God does not exist, then how do we decide what to believe?


I decided because I saw the difference it may in my sisters, their husbands and my brother. I saw a difference in their life, the peace, confidence and joy that replaced the struggle, worry, and problems they had before they were born-again.


The way they talked about good things and acted so happy and treated people more kindly. The way they handled their problems with ease. The way their lives were changed so much for the better in every way.



Then going to church with them and everyone there were loving, friendly and happy. I also saw those people outside of church and they were the same. I had many examples of Believers in God and I watched their actions and saw the light in their eyes, the joy they had and how they were always steadfast.


I was jealous of them, because I did not have that peace, I was not happy, being single mom and having to take care of an elderly and “not very kind” dad, I was overworked and depressed. I wanted what they had.


Then I said the sinner's prayer and I knew something had changed on the inside of me. I started reading the Bible and going to church and I felt a joy that I could not find a reason for, because nothing on the outside had changed. I could handle things with more ease and confidence.



My belief in God changed my life; it made my life worth living, not just existing. I found I was actually a happy person now with hope for the future.



The depression was gone, the 'overworked' feeling was gone; I had more energy and strength to do what I had to do. I felt better physically, mentally and emotionally.


I decided to believe in God and His Holy Word because of examples set by those who believed. I continue to believe in God because of the change it made in my life.

[Credendovidis]

Apologies for the length of this post, but I was asked to provide examples. And here they are...

Give some examples.

With all pleasure ! I don't know where I found the following list on the Internet. It was a long time ago. But I thank who ever it was !

Biblical contradictions

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6

2. God dwells in chosen temples 2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples Acts 7:48

3. God dwells in light Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness 1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

4. God is seen and heard Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

5. God is tired and rests Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests Is 40:28

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

7. God knows the hearts of men Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

8. God is all powerful Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful Judg 1:19

9. God is unchangeable James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14

10. God is just and impartial Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

11. God is the author of evil Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil 1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

12. God gives freely to those who ask James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

13. God is to be found by those who seek him Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him Prov 1:28

14. God is warlike Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/ 1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings, sacrifices , and holy days Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings, sacrifices, and holy days. Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

18. God accepts human sacrifices 2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice Deut 12:30,31

19. God tempts men Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man James 1:13

20. God cannot lie Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive 2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him Gen 8:21

22. God's attributes are revealed in his works. Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered Job 11:7/ Is 40:28

23. There is but one God Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

25. Lying approved and sanctioned Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned 2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden Deut 23:7

27. Killing commanded Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden Ex 20:13

28. The blood-shedder must die Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die Gen 4:15

29. The making of images forbidden Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded Ex 25:18,20

30. Slavery and oppression ordained Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

31. Improvidence enjoyed Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned 1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22

32. Anger approved Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20

33. Good works to be seen of men Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men Matt 6:1

34. Judging of others forbidden Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved 1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

35. Christ taught non-resistance Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed John 7:1

37. Public prayer sanctioned 1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved Matt 6:5,6

38. Importunity in prayer commended Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned Matt 6:7,8

39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned 1 Cor 11:14

40. Circumcision instituted Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned Gal 5:2

41. The Sabbath instituted Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites out of Egypt Deut 5:15

43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in the same John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

44. Baptism commanded Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded 1 Cor 1:17,14

45. Every kind of animal allowed for food. Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food. Deut 14:7,8

46. Taking of oaths sanctioned Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden Matt 5:34

47. Marriage approved Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved 1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8

48. Freedom of divorce permitted Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted Matt 5:32

49. Adultery forbidden Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

I stopped here with no. 50. Don't want to overload here. But I have about 500 more of these... In various categories, including Historical Facts and Speculative Doctrines
Of course you can argue about a couple of these, but there are too many remaining to dismiss the statement that the Bible is loaded with contradictions !

:rolleyes:

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[Credendovidis]

(Re. many hundreds of clear contradictions in the bible) Now may I ask you a question? How many times have you read the Bible, and how many hours have you studied it to come up with this belief?

I read the entire Bible several times. I know more than enough of it's content to QUESTION it as the "word of God" and as the source of the "evidence" for God's existence.

Besides that : if you think that to be a good Christian requires hours upon hours of Bible studies, than you are surely wrong. I know lot's of "good" Christians who hardly ever study the Bible. And I also know extremely "bad" Christians who spend every available minute with their nose in the Bible.
As I have stated many times before : "words are easy, but your deeds show who and what you are"...

.... I decided to believe in God and His Holy Word because of examples set by those who believed. I continue to believe in God because of the change it made in my life.

Fine with me. From me you may believe whatever you prefer !
In this topic I did not attack how or why you believe what you believe.
I question WHAT you believe. Specially the topic name makes little sense (who were these ungodly? There were not many "ungodly" where Jesus preached.)

:rolleyes:

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[tsila1777]

Can we return now to the topic? Can we return now to the topic? Can we return now to the topic? Can we return now to the topic? Can we return now to the topic?

What happen to wanting to get back to the topic, Cred?

As for your ridiculous list, that thing proves nothing! One verse does not stand-alone. Each verse must be taken in context with what is being discussed and the verses before and after; as in any other book, article or even post.

Have you studied each one of these for yourself or do you just believe the list by faith because it makes it easier for you then actually doing the research yourself and providing some evidence, what is it that you are always asking for….ostd?




For instance you said: Pascal's Wager has already for many years been proved logically invalid....

Then you said:
Pascal provided with his wager the logical conclusion that christians are in the same position as other theists and non-theists : believing in an entity just out of fear for some claimed "final judgment" does not work. There is no guarantee that any religious claim is the correct one. All Christians do is believe in another god than other mono-theists do, believe in less gods than multi-theists do, or in one more god than non-believers do.


invalid.... synonyms: untrue, unacceptable, unsound.

Therefore you are saying Pascal's wager is untrue, unacceptable and unsound. I agree.

Can we return now to the topic?

[tsila1777]

[quote=Credendovidis]I read the entire Bible several times. I know more than enough of it's content to QUESTION it as the "word of God" and as the source of the "evidence" for God's existence. I doubt that, words are easy..........

Besides that : if you think that to be a good Christian requires hours upon hours of Bible studies, than you are surely wrong. Did I say that? Show me where I said that. See now this is just another good example of taking things our of context.

I know lot's of "good" Christians who hardly ever study the Bible. And I also know extremely "bad" Christians who spend every available minute with their nose in the Bible.
You know people who call themselves Christians perhaps...But who are you to judge who is good and who is bad?


As I have stated many times before : "words are easy, but your deeds show who and what you are"... they sure do...And you will be judged by them.......


Fine with me. From me you may believe whatever you prefer !
In this topic I did not attack how or why you believe what you believe.
I question WHAT you believe. Why?

Specially the topic name makes little sense (who were these ungodly? There were not many "ungodly" where Jesus preached.) Did I say He preached to the ungodly?
Besides, I thought you read the Bible several times, don't you know?


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[Credendovidis]

I doubt that, words are easy

Fine with me, just doubt whatever you want !

But who are you to judge who is good and who is bad?

I don't. That's why I put these words between marks. I do not judge. But I know what is good and what is bad. For instance that constant aggression in your posts to me : that shows you a bad (as in "poor") Christian. You do not "spread the word", you show your hurt ego !

As for your ridiculous list, that thing proves nothing!

Why ridiculous? That list shows that there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible. How could a perfect deity have any contradictions (imperfections) in his instruction manual for humanity?

Besides, I thought you read the Bible several times, don't you know?

You sound like a Muslim who can quote from the Qur'an by head. Where is in the Bible the instruction to do similar?
I have read many thoudsands of books. Do you expect me to know the entire content of all these too, line by line, word by word? Why should I? For me the Bible is just a book. Nothing more, just a book full of faults, mistakes, unsupported claims, and lots of contradictions ! It seems to me that your "logic" lacks any validity!!

===

If you make quotations, please do that correctly. The way you do now is very unclear. If you need instructions how to do, just ask !

:rolleyes:

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