[Tj3]

Fair enough... I just thought it amusing that I'm supposed to give HIM a quote that he uses in his signature.

But I don't use it in my signature and never have. That is an outright blatant lie, and you have proved in on here.

What you picked was a link from a webpage whiich is linked from a webspage which I do not control or own, which was linked from my webpage which was linked from my signature.

It was not in my signature as you have now claimed twice, and the second time is a deliberate lie because you have already noted that it was not in my signature, nor even on my webapge.

So tell me, is lying endorsed by your denomination?

So far you have called me stupid, and lied about me to defend your position.

Do you think lying about me is enhancing your argument at all? Or are you simply trying to distract from the bankruptcy of your argument?

[ScottRC]

On the other hand, it must be tiring to read a post by a misinformed individual attacking your church with the same tired lines, when all he is doing is parroting something that he's heard. (Which is not to say that I agree with your church's theology.)

So, I can sympathize.

Does get a bit old... eventually we'll get back on topic.

[Tj3]

Does get a bit old... eventually we'll get back on topic.

But will we see an apology for your false accusations and abuse? Remember, the rest of us were trying to discuss the topic - you were the one who de-railed the discussion with abusive comments.

[Tj3]

Well Scott, I see that you have posted no retraction of apology for your libellous and false accusations (even though you were in fact on line when I posted my previous response and have been on-line since).

The fact that you had to go to a link of link of a link off my webpage to another webpage tells me that you could not find the hoped for "hateful" comments on my page or on anything that I wrote, so you went elsewhere and then falsely attributed the comments to me. That speaks well of my site that your best efforts could find nothing to honestly complain about on site.

To be honest, your behaviour on here calling those who disagree with your denomination "stupid" and "ignorant" and liars" and this comment, followed by your refusal to withdraw the comments or apologize speaks louder than anything that I could ever say, or would ever say about your faith. And you note that I have said nothing derogatory about the adherents to your faith.

Yes a person may make a mistake, but how you deal with it after that is what tells us what your faith means to you in real life, or as we read in scripture:

James 2:20-21
0 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
NKJV

[arcura]

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.
The Church has carried on the biblical tradition to this day.
Yours is a very good question but I fear there is no clear answer to how long a person stay in purgatory.
God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Peter Wilson]

Oops, spelling error!

Just practicing

[Peter Wilson]

A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.

There is no way to look at the supposed purgatory, in a positive way.
How can extreme agony that may last for centuries, in a fire that melts rock, e.g. the lake of fire in the centre of the earth.
How any-one can believe that a loving Father, could put His beloved children, that is, those that chose to follow his Son, into such extreme suffering.
The idea comes from the worship of Molech where they passed their children through the fire.
Actually, I believe the had a statue of Molech, probably bronze, with outstretched hands.
They had a raging fire inside the statue that had it almost glowing red.
The drumming and the chanting covered the screams of the baby as it was placed into the hands of the statue and cooked and burnt alive.


The idea of purgatory has been around a long time, Plato, who lived between427 to 347 BC, spoke of the Orphic teachers of his day " who would flock to rich mens doors and try to persuade them that they have a power at their command, which the procure from heaven and which enables them by sacrifices and incantation, to make amends for any crime committed by the individual himself, or his ancestors. their mysteries deliver us from the torments of the other world, while the neglect of them is punished by an awful doom." (Smith , "Man and his gods" P. 127)

There is an elaborate description of purgatorial suffering in the sacred writings of Buddhism.
There were times that there were so many Chinese buddhists that came to buy prayers for the deliverance from purgatory that special shops were set up for this purpose.
In the religion of Zoroaster, souls are taken through twelve stages before they are sufficiently purified to enter heaven.
The Stoics conceived of a middle place of enlightenment which they called Empurosis, that is, "a place of fire".
According to Moslem doctrine, the angels Munnker and Nekier question those who die as to their religion and prophet.
Many of these go into purgatory, but through money given to a priest, an escape may be provided.
The concept of giving money on behalf of the dead is very ancient, a point which may be seen in the Bible itself.
Apparently the Israelites were exposed to this belief, for they were warned not to give money "for the dead"(Deut 26:14)
After presenting detailed evidence for his conclusion, Hislop says:"In every system, therefore, except that of the Bible, the doctrine of purgatory after death, and prayers for the dead, has always been found to occupy a place" ( Hislop. "The two Babylons P. 167)
it is very possible that concepts about purgatory and certain ideas linked with Molech worship, all stemmed from the same source.
It appears that various nations had the idea that fire, in one way or another, was necessary to cleanse from sin.
The Israelites were repeatedly forbidden to let their seed " pass through the fire to Molech"
(Lev.18:21 Jer. 32:35, 2 Kings 23:10)
Molech, (who some identify with Bel or Nimrod), was worshipped "with human sacrifices, purifications, with mutilation, vows of celibacy and virginity, and devotion of the firstborn."( Fausset's Bible Encl.)
( Babylon Mystery Religion P. 71-72)

[sndbay]

God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

This is a double-barreled statement spoken. First you tell us God decides the judgement of sins. Then you appoint yourself in judgement by saying they go to heaven. Who put you on the right hand of God? I rebuke your statement in the Name of Jesus.

1 Samuel 2:2-3 There is none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: neither [is there] any rock like our God. Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let [not] arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.

Matthew 15: 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

[rhadsen]

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.
The Church has carried on the biblical tradition to this day.
Yours is a very good question but I fear there is no clear answer to how long a person stay in purgatory.
God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.
A positive way to look at Purgatory is that if a person is there they will, after a time, be in heaven with God and His saints and angels.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

I do appreciate your answer. Part of the reason I asked is that there seems (from what I can tell discussing this topic with my friends) to be an "official debate version" of purgatory and a "popular version." My memory is a little foggy, but it seems my Catholic Catechism mentions an indulgence of 3 years for reading the Bible for 15 minutes. (Or 3 years off purgatory time. I can't remember which, I'll have to check it.)

Rob

p.s. Just to be clear, I am not Catholic, nor do I believe that the Bible teaches Purgatory. Yes, I have read the Apocrypha, much of the fathers, and the entire Bible several times including the often quoted proof texts for purgatory such as Luke 16:24; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Corinthians 3:15... I'm simply trying to get a handle on the RC view.

[N0help4u]

This is interesting but again it is using 1 Corinthians 3 that is the Judgment day of works not sin to justify believing purgatory.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory_qa.html

Everything I read that put a time on purgatory said 12 months

[Tj3]

rhadsen,
There is no Church teaching or bible teaching that tells us how long a person stays in Purgatory that I am aware of.
But The Church was given from Jesus Christ the ability to bind or lose sins.
He did that when he appointed Peter to be the first leader of The Church.

Fred, that argument is getting a bit old, but I would be interested in seeing you provide some scriptural backup for the claim.

God decides how long it takes to have a person's sinful nature purged.

Jesus purged ALL my sins.

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Note that this is clear that He (Jesus) purged the sins of those who are saved "by himself".

As for who forgives our sins, it is, once again, Jesus:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

[eastsun123]

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob

The Catholic Church have recently turned around and stated that all the unborn babies that were buried in fields with no priest or prayers were destined to 'Limbo'. This has been now overturned by the Catholic Church and state that all these babies go straight to Gods Kingdom. In the famine years in Ireland in the 1883, when Ireland was under the rule of the British Empire. Irish people were not educated, were dependent on the potato as the main diet. When this food chain was destroyed by 'blight; the British allowed nearly two million Irish to starve. There was no under nurished priest in Ireland and my Grandfather recalls young men and women being buries where they fell. No, I do not believe in Purgatory. That will be the next admission by the Catholic Church. All have their suffering in one form or another.

[ScottRC]

The Catholic Church have recently turned around and stated that all the unborn babies that were buried in fields with no priest or prayers were destined to 'Limbo'. This has been now overturned by the Catholic Church and state that all these babies go straight to Gods Kingdom.

No they have not.

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
Catechism of the Catholic Church #1261

[N0help4u]

That is what gets me about those Catholic teaching they change with the times whenever if they were of God they wouldn't be 'outdated' where they have to change,

[N0help4u]

Tj3 agrees: Quite true. And you can never get an answer as to how many indulgences or masses for the dead that you pay for will release you or your loved one from [purgatory.

Yeah and in fact I have heard them say that it is not true that you have to do indulgences, masses or pay their way out. Also the Bible clearly shows PERSONAL relationship so no man can intervene for another other than prayer WHILE they are STILL alive.

[ScottRC]

That is what gets me about those Catholic teaching they change with the times whenever if they were of God they wouldn't be 'outdated' where they have to change,

Fair enough... but we see things a bit differently:

"The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ." Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries" (CCC#66)

[N0help4u]

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?

Where does the Bible say that others can get you out of Purgatory or save your soul by indulgences, masses or money?
Spiritual things are not contingent on money either. That is where Judas and others made their mistake was thinking Jesus came to fix the material world.

[ScottRC]

They have a loop hole for everything to get around what the scripture actually SAYS don't they?

Not a very Christian attitude, now is it?

[N0help4u]

If you want to think loopholes are more acturate than scripture then I guess maybe it isn't a very Catholic attitude

[ScottRC]

If you want to think loopholes are more acturate than scripture then I guess maybe it isn't a very Catholic attitude

Since you've yet to prove your interpretation is scripture is 100% infallibly accurate, I can't see how you can honestly judge anyone else..?

Once again, on purgatory:

Purgatory exists because God is both just and merciful.

Purgatory is “like a refiner’s fire” (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ’s Body and having thereby received God’s supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.

......but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8)

In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)

Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word - just like the Trinity.