[lobrobster]

Does "god knows our every move" equal "god determines our every move"? And be careful that the "god knows our every move" doesn't sound like Santa knowing when we've been good or bad and is keeping a list.

The "part of god's great plan" annoys me. "God's great plan" needs to be defined. What is your guess?

And those at funerals who say "it was god's will" creep me out.

If God knows you will die tomorrow, is He powerless to prevent it? You can't have it both ways. Either God is omniscient, or omnipotent. He can't be both.

[leeseeandjoel]

Who's father? My father is invisible and rides a great winged horse up in the galaxies. He will come back when bixor rises from the sea and fires will rain down upon this 300 year old earth (I'll bet you thought it was 6000 yrs. old, ha-ha). Then all who believe will be given party favors and ascend to be with him forever. I know this because my book says so. I pity all you worshiping the wrong god. You will be sent to nests where fire ants will eat your eyes for eternity. It's in my book!

I could write a book and say it where true, but that wouldn't make it so. The bible is important for us as believers, but even if we didn't have it, we would still know him. Do you think the bible was around in Moses' Day, nope, yet he still knew him. He is alive. It's like if you are familiar with someone's voice and they called you on the phone, wouldn't you know who it was even with out them saying so? It's kind of like that. When I was a little girl I just knew God existed(without being trained either) Not to mention the many times he has manifested in my life, many a miracles... How about your invisible Father... has he ever pulled you through and brought you out and shown himself to be true and alive in your life over and over again... mocking me will not change what is true or not.. so try to make yourself feel better.. tell me another prophesy about my life.. fire ants... really??

[Wondergirl]

If God knows you will die tomorrow, is He powerless to prevent it? You can't have it both ways. Either God is omniscient, or omnipotent. He can't be both.

Oh, yes he can be both. One Jewish rabbi wrote a book about this. The rabbi concluded that, in order to give us free will, God had to take a step back to allow that to happen.

I see my child eyeing the candy rack at the grocery store and, as his mother, knowing he loves M&Ms also know what will likely happen. I can reach out to stop him, but I don't. He has a choice. He decides to surrepitiously take a package of M&Ms. Could I have stopped him? Yes. Did I? No. Why didn't I? Perhaps there's a better lesson to be learned after the fact than by taking away his choice.

God is omniscient and omnipotent, and yet we have free will. He knows what will happen but He doesn't stop us. He isn't a robot at the beck and call of his omniscience and omnipotence. And perhaps there's a lesson for us to learn when He doesn't stop us?

[Wondergirl]

If God knows you will die tomorrow, is He powerless to prevent it?

God could prevent my dying tomorrow, but why should He? He put the forces of Nature to work in our lives and doesn't interfere with them. Earthquakes and tsunamis and monsoons and e. Coli and MRSA and heart attacks and cancer kill people. Could He save everyone? Sure He could! Does He? No.

[leeseeandjoel]

So god knows all the choices we make and has a plan for our life, ie. our life is pre-determined by god, but we do not always choose this route. Something is wrong here.

Ok your not getting it... He has an original plan.. however we stray from that original plan.. God will open up another avanue for us and allow us to learn from our mistakes. Is it that hard to understand that God would want to protect you and bless your life and love you. He doesn't want to restict your happiness and hurt you. It's a lot like parenting what parent wouldn't want their children to prosper and live greatly. When God says don't he means don't hurt yourself or someone else. Basically the one command Gods asks of us is to LOVE. Everything he does is to glorify himself. Have you ever read the story of Job? God allowed Job to face some really difficult times and Job remained faithful and God blessed him even more! That wasn't the original plan however, satin had to ask permission from God to test him in the first place. He thought that if maybe you took all the blessings from Jobs life he would renouce the Lord and Satin would prove Job wasn't worth bragging about. (yes God bragged about job much like we as parents do) In the end Job still glorifies his Heavenly father. This doesn't mean now that you can say every christian will have to experience the same as Job. We are all unique and this includes the plans for our lives. God will never allow you to go through anything that his mercy and grace will not allow you to endure. Like the darkest part of the night is right before the light comes...

[leeseeandjoel]

Oh, yes he can be both. One Jewish rabbi wrote a book about this. The rabbi concluded that, in order to give us free will, God had to take a step back to allow that to happen.

I see my child eyeing the candy rack at the grocery store and, as his mother, knowing he loves M&Ms also know what will likely happen. I can reach out to stop him, but I don't. He has a choice. He decides to surrepitiously take a package of M&Ms. Could I have stopped him? Yes. Did I? No. Why didn't I? Perhaps there's a better lesson to be learned after the fact than by taking away his choice.

God is omniscient and omnipotent, and yet we have free will. He knows what will happen but He doesn't stop us. He isn't a robot at the beck and call of his omniscience and omnipotence. And perhaps there's a lesson for us to learn when He doesn't stop us?

I agree with wondergirl

[Wondergirl]

Ok your not getting it...He has an original plan..however we stray from that original plan.. God will open up another avanue for us and allow us to learn from our mistakes. Is it that hard to understand that God would want to protect you and bless your life and love you. He doesn't want to restict your happiness and hurt you. it's a lot like parenting what parent wouldn't want their children to prosper and live greatly. When God says don't he means don't hurt yourself or someone else. Basically the one command Gods asks of us is to LOVE. Everything he does is to glorify himself. Have you ever read the story of Job?? God allowed Job to face some really difficult times and Job remained faithful and God blessed him even more!! That wasn't the original plan however, satin had to ask permission from God to test him in the first place. He thought that if maybe you took all the blessings from Jobs life he would renouce the Lord and Satin would prove Job wasn't worth bragging about. (yes God bragged about job much like we as parents do) In the end Job still glorifies his Heavenly father. This doesn't mean now that you can say every christian will have to experience the same as Job. We are all unique and this includes the plans for our lives. God will never allow you to go through anything that his mercy and grace will not allow you to endure. like the darkest part of the night is right before the light comes......

This is exactly what I mean. Non-Christians couldn't care less about Job, and probably have no clue about him. The above paragraph goes on and on, rambles and uses all those words and phrases that so easily turn off a non-Christian. Very few people will read what is in that paragraph. Those who do would say the same thing, so you are preaching only to the choir.

Saying "Ok your not getting it" to a non-Christian is one of the worst things a Christian can do. Talk about turnoff!

Take that Gospel message and personalize it. Make it yours. Roll it around in your heart and wrap it up inside your own situation. Apply it to your own life. Only when the Gospel is in your bones and part of how your mind works will you be able to speak it so that non-Christians will listen and be interested.

[lobrobster]

I could write a book and say it where true, but that wouldn't make it so.

O'rly? Kind of my point. :)

Do you think the bible was around in Moses' Day, nope, yet he still knew him.

Of course they did. I would have known Him too. God made frequent cameo appearances in those days. Talking behind burning bushes and all that. It supposedly was nothing unusual for God to just drop by and talk to someone back then. Serious question...

Don't you find it the least bit curious that God hasn't made a personal appearance or uttered a single work in over 2000 years?? I wonder why that is?

It's like if you are familiar with someone's voice and they called you on the phone, wouldn't you know who it was even with out them saying so?

I'm not sure who's point you're trying to prove. Yes, I would know them because... I've spoken with them before!

When I was a little girl I just knew God existed(without being trained either)

This is genuinely interesting to me. Do you think if you had been brought up in Pakistan the God you 'knew' existed would have been Allah? If you had been brought up in India, might it not have been Brahma or Vishnu? By what coincidence do you attribute the sheer luck of your having been born in a geographical location where the God of Abraham is worshiped?

Not to mention the many times he has manifested in my life, many a miracles...

I have no doubt you have overcame hardships in your life. We just don't agree on why. I give you more credit than you do. I don't credit a god.

How about your invisible Father... has he ever pulled you through and brought you out and shown himself to be true and alive in your life over and over again...

Well, if I claimed that he did, it would be every bit as strong as your claim that your god has pulled you though. So let's try an experiment. I'm going to say, YES! My invisible father has pulled me through many trying times in my life. Are you going to claim he didn't? What's your rationale for doubting me?

[leeseeandjoel]

Does "god knows our every move" equal "god determines our every move"? And be careful that the "god knows our every move" doesn't sound like Santa knowing when we've been good or bad and is keeping a list.

The "part of god's great plan" annoys me. "God's great plan" needs to be defined. What is your guess?

And those at funerals who say "it was god's will" creep me out.

"God's great plan" cannot defined it's personal... it's like defining every part of our bodies and then saying now what is that bodies purpose... there are more variables to it.

And for the funerals... was it Gods plan.. well there are two sure things in life, you are born and then you die. We all will face death one day. I do believe that some times it is in Gods will and sometimes people go too soon by someone else's choice.
For instance.. my baby sister was accidentally killed by a shot gun at 9 yrs old, I don't think that was in Gods will, but he allowed her to leave this world anyhow. At the same time, I didn't know it then, but it actually spared her from a lot of other hurt that I didn't foresee coming.
Then my brother was murdered in 2003 at 20 yrs old. I also didn't think that was God's will and was a choice someone else made, but he allowed it to happen.. for reasons I do not understand yet.
My Daddy died last year.. he just fell asleep and didn't wake up. However if you were to read the story of his life you would understand.. he was a beautiful man and the Lord had mercy on his soul and took him home. He struggled in his life partly because he did his will instead of asking God what his was, so our family has endured much do to bad decisions. God has not let any of it happen in vain he has taught me a lot about life and what is important and what is not and how glorious and magnificent he is and Loving. I praise God for my life and theirs.. my fathers, sisters and brothers legacy and purpose will be fulfilled through me now and what a blessing that is...

[DrJ]

The problem lies in Man's tendency to humanize God. We think that God is this old gray haired man sitting in a chair that floats in the clouds. "how can HE do this..?" "how can HE do that...?"

Try as we might, our minds cannot fathom God... we can speculate this or that but we don't have the ability to vision it.

There are just something's that we cannot fathom. Try to imagine a 16 armed monkey with red hair and a horses tail. Easy right? You've never seen one but can easily picture what that would look like. Now imagine God. An image probably popped in your head.. maybe it's the Christian picture of Jesus or maybe it's a cartoon character or whatever it is.. I'm sure it varies much more than the monkey.

Now try to imagine "nothing"... literally NOTHING. Im sure most invisionied blackness.. or grayness... or whiteness... but not NOTHINGNESS. Unfortunately, that is just something that we cannot fathom.

Just as God is.

The Bible humanizes God all through it. But how else can it try to describe it? It Man attempted to describe God as God really is, we would all be worse off than we are now.

[DrJ]

Don't you find it the least bit curious that God hasn't made a personal appearance or uttered a single work in over 2000 years?!?! I wonder why that is?

Maybe he has? Maybe the same things have been happening this entire time? Anyone who claims that God spoke to them from behind a burning bush is deemed crazy, neurotic, etc... no one takes them seriously.

Once the Bible was finalized and re-released to the public, if anyone witnessed God or claimed to be spoken to by Him, he's just some wacko

[lobrobster]

Now try to imagine "nothing" ...literally NOTHING. Im sure most invisionied blackness.. or grayness... or whiteness... but not NOTHINGNESS. Unfortunately, that is just something that we cannot fathom.

I admit 'nothing' bothers me. I have tried to contemplate it and found it disturbing. I'm still an atheist, but I do see what you're saying here.

[DrJ]

I admit 'nothing' bothers me. I have tried to contemplate it and found it disturbing. I'm still an atheist, but I do see what you're saying here.

I can understand your disturbance... especially coming from an atheist.

And yet, one MUST admit that nothingness does, or at least did at one time, exist.

[Wondergirl]

"God's great plan" cannot defined it's personal... it's like defining every part of our bodies and then saying now what is that bodies purpose... there are more variables to it.

Check out the Gospels and the Two Greatest Commandments for God's plan.

I do believe that some times it is in Gods will

Sometimes? Not all the time?

I don't think that was in Gods will

But you don't know. Romans 11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord..

but it actually spared her from a lot of other hurt that I didn't foresee coming

So it's better to be dead? My father almost ran over me when I was 3. Should I have been killed so I didn't end up with an autistic child?

if you were to read the story of his life you would understand.. he was a beautiful man and the Lord had mercy on his soul and took him home

So those who loved the Lord and who died in pain and agony, chewed up by lions or in an earthquake, weren't as beautiful? A peaceful death shows God loves that person more?

[lobrobster]

Maybe he has? Maybe the same things have been happening this entire time?? Anyone who claims that God spoke to them from behind a burning bush is deemed crazy, neurotic, etc... no one takes them seriously.

Once the Bible was finalized and re-released to the public, if anyone witnessed God or claimed to be spoken to by Him, hes just some wacko

This is off topic a bit, but I never understood this...

It seems to me that there would be more need for God to come down and speak to us now, then back in those days when there weren't even that many people around.

To me, the whole idea is so patently false that it should be obvious to anyone who puts even a moment's thought into it. If any parent today were to even think about putting a knife to their child's throat as Abraham did, they would rightly be carted off to jail. Saying that God told them to do it wouldn't suffice. Why then, do people believe God did such things in those days? And even if God DID do such things, why wouldn't that be considered an atrocity?

We don't accept people's assertions that God speaks to them, because we know it is delusional. It's why Andrea Yates is behind bars right now. So why do we accept it from people who lived 2000 years ago?

[lobrobster]

And yet, one MUST admit that nothingness does, or at least did at one time, exist.

Wait a sec... I thought if you believed in at least the Christian god, you didn't have to accept there was ever nothingness. Didn't god ALWAYS exist?

[Wondergirl]

This is off topic a bit, but I never understood this...

It seems to me that there would be more need for God to come down and speak to us now, then back in those days when there weren't even that many people around.

To me, the whole idea is so patently false that it should be obvious to anyone who puts even a moment's thought into it. If any parent today were to even think about putting a knife to their child's throat as Abraham did, they would rightly be carted off to jail. Saying that God told them to do it wouldn't suffice. Why then, do people believe God did such things in those days? And even if God DID do such things, why wouldn't that be considered an atrocity?

We don't accept people's assertions that God speaks to them, because we know it is delusional. It's why Andrea Yates is behind bars right now. So why when, do we accept it from people who lived 2000 years ago?

I'm going to jump off your off-topic comments and ask you to think about the story of Abraham. Whether it was true or not, whether God talked to him or not, think of the story as something like one of Aesop's fables. What truth is being taught in the story?

[DrJ]

Wait a sec... I thought if you believed in at least the Christian god, you didn't have to accept there was ever nothingness. Didn't god ALWAYS exist?

Well the answer that any religious fanatic would give you is that God hasn't done this since Jesus came. Once Jesus came, it was no longer necessary. Now it all relies on Faith.

Which I think is a load of crap myself.

That is just what must be said in order to keep things in line... as accurate with the Bible as possible.

Herein lies the problem with the Bible.

Was it meant to be literal? Or was it just a way to get certain points across?

Is it truly the ONLY Word of God? Or are the millions of other deeply insightful books written by some of the greatest minds ever also God word put into print?

Did God ever speak the people of that time as it is depicted that they did? Or was it just as much as we hear a greater voice inside that speaks to us every day?

[DrJ]

Wait a sec... I thought if you believed in at least the Christian god, you didn't have to accept there was ever nothingness. Didn't god ALWAYS exist?

Unless God is that nothingness as much as he is everything else.

But wait, how could that be? Where would he have sat? When did he buy that golden throne that floats on clouds?

[workerbee]

Which God are speaking of?

Agdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Amaterasu, An, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Cheng-huang, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina, Davlin, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Epona, Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Hades, Hanuman, Helios, Heng-o, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Hestia, Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jupiter, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kukulcan, Lakshmi, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Magna Mater, Marduk, Mars, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna, Nanse, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, Rhea, Sabazius, Sarasvati, Shiva, Seshat, Seti, Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Tiamat, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil, or Zeus.

And more importantly, why?

workerbee