[valinors_sorrow]

Anyway, the concept stuck with me b/c it made sense. God IS perfect and so is His plan for mankind and the world. By saying that His creations must be a "do over" then WE are insulting Him in so many words that He is NOT perfect. I, as a Christian, reject that statement.

So therefore all people are perfect, especially Christians! Hmmm, that explains a lot of things...

And if people are perfect, but slow to learn, then why is it not feasible that God himself invented reincarnation as a means of teaching those slow-to-learn-but-perfect creatures? It is rather ingenious if you think about it!

[31pumpkin]

The Bible was "penned" by man but God-breathed AND had many witnesses. Can't claim that about the "holy books" of any of the other "religions" if you read the author's claims.

Have you ever had to speak on the spot and knew the Holy Spirit gave you the words at the most important time?

I thank God I do not doubt my faith. The Bible was inspired by God. AMEN.



PPS- Val- You started with a statement of prejudice. That is entirely your own(about Christians)
No one said MAN was perfect. Only God and Jesus. Man was blameless until Adam sinned. This is the reason man NEEDS God. B/c he is not perfect.

[valinors_sorrow]

What is there to figure out? You put your tooth under your pillow. Next morning it's gone and you get $100.00 in its place. Who but the Tooth Fairy ............
M:)

Hey man, can you send your toothfairy over to my house -- I put a whole set of dentures under my pillow! :rolleyes:

[Sentra]

The Bible was "penned" by man but God-breathed AND had many witnesses. Can't claim that about the "holy books" of any of the other "religions" if you read the author's claims.

Have you ever had to speak on the spot and knew the Holy Spirit gave you the words at the most important time?

I thank God I do not doubt my faith. The Bible was inspired by God. AMEN.

Its not very 'Christian' of you to negatively point out these other religions and faiths.

[talaniman]

That is my point since many believe for whatever reason but the bottom line is it is only in the eye of the beholder and there is no proof one way or another that reincarnation even exists or that the reason given here throughout this thread is its conflict with the bible.

Why is there talk about the bible when the OP was asking what we thought about reincarnation

There are some here that have used the bible to refute reincarnation as a belief, and I refute the bible as an imperfect product of mans attempt to explain his beliefs. No side has evidence for or against just conjecture and BELIEF!!

[Sentra]

I don't care if someone devoutly reads The Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. and slams it in my face when they want to prove something, because deep inside MYSELF I know what is MY belief, MY opinion, MY way. Not saying that I haven't had a good influence; being surrounded by different religions as a kid I learned to accept diversity, and not persecute it because it didn't fit 'me'.

[Thomas1970]

By saying that His creations must be a "do over" then WE are insulting Him in so many words that He is NOT perfect.

Though I can not speak authoritatively for reincarnation, as this is not a part of my belief system, the doctrine of rebirth states that we are in fact already perfect. It is only through our ignorance of our true nature that we continue to perpetuate in limited existences characterized by suffering. Whereas Christianity is said to regard "knowledge" as the original sin, Buddhism could be said to believe that it is "ignorance" that is the original sin.
And yet, at the same time, looking only to be whisked of into the Heavens, do you not greatly disregard the Earth, also one of God's greatest creations. Buddhism also teaches that Heaven and hell are not separate, only reverse sides of the same valuable coin. Samsara or Nirvana, it's all dependent on your view.

[valinors_sorrow]

Though I can not speak authoritatively for reincarnation, as this is not a part of my belief system, the doctrine of rebirth states that we are in fact already perfect. It is only through our ignorance of our true nature that we continue to perpetuate in limited existences characterized by suffering. Whereas Christianity is said to regard "knowledge" as the original sin, Buddhism could be said to believe that it is "ignorance" that is the original sin.
And yet, at the same time, looking only to be whisked of into the Heavens, do you not greatly disregard the Earth, also one of God's greatest creations. Buddhism also teaches that Heaven and hell are not seperate, only reverse sides of the same valuable coin. Samsara or Nirvana, it's all dependent on your view.

Thank you for that clarification, Thomas. More and more, I think I am becoming a buddhist.

[talaniman]

The Bible was "penned" by man but God-breathed AND had many witnesses. Can't claim that about the "holy books" of any of the other "religions" if you read the author's claims.

Have you ever had to speak on the spot and knew the Holy Spirit gave you the words at the most important time?

I thank God I do not doubt my faith. The Bible was inspired by God. AMEN.



PPS- Val- You started off with a statement of prejudice. That is entirely your own(about Christians)
No one said MAN was perfect. Only God and Jesus. Man was blameless until Adam sinned. This is the reason man NEEDS God. B/c he is not perfect.

You have no proof this is true, that just what you believe, which is cool

[31pumpkin]

Well thanks Tal, at least it's cool!

I thought the new ignorance was radical Islam! Seems others like to use the word ignorance for EFFECT. It shines the light on them themselves. I don't know what college y'all went to, but if you did go, you wouldn't hang your hat on such a negative word. Oh I forgot -you got a degree in what?
I don't know whether you are a believer or not Sentra- so by playing safe & generic faithwise, does that give you the go ahead to say I speak negatively of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, any other false religions or cults I believe are out there? Yes, I can defend Christianity. But I too have to live in a world with diversity. I choose to interact (mostly in person) with all different faiths & cultures, and base that interaction on the persons themselves and how they treat me- and expect vice-versa, and what is the purpose or objective for that interaction? That is what is important. It bears very little on my own private backround or theirs(as far as what we believe our faith to be) Does that make any sense?

[NeedKarma]

... any other false religions or cults I believe are out there?...

I think that's what Sentra may be alluding to - the fact that you believe that all other religion but yours is a false religion. Is it possible that the religion you practice is a false religion? :)

[valinors_sorrow]

PPS- Val- You started off with a statement of prejudice. That is entirely your own(about Christians)
No one said MAN was perfect. Only God and Jesus. Man was blameless until Adam sinned. This is the reason man NEEDS God. B/c he is not perfect.

That was a joke about the perfect Christians, Pumpkin, one that had something of a point but its okay if it was missed or overlooked. I don't have that prejudice, fortunately. And I think we would all agree that people need enlightening, whether that be by a God or a faith or even a few rounds of reincarnation. Its so very much a choice for each of us to embrace that which we see fitting. And can be done without the putting down of any others too.

PPS- Pumpkin: You can't claim your faith is the one true faith and all others are false or cults without having spoken "negatively". That is what Sentra is speaking of, I do believe. Negative = false. What you can do instead to avoid the negative is claim your faith as true according to you... and leave it at that. Then there is no negative!

Its like this... I hold my belief dear but I neither expect any of you to convert to it nor do I wish for, anticipate or make claims about any punishment for you if you don't. That Christianity does and is so vigorously defended by some here along this line of "convert or be punished" is what is getting everyone's dander up. You can hardly be surprised when some respond with... "who me? how dare you!"... since you wouldn't like that whole "convert or be punished" thing handed out to you by some other faith, would you? In fact, no one is going to like that or ever be converted like that either. It used to be that religions could scare people into believing in them but those days are long gone. People are much more sophisticated now due to how much access to information they have.

[talaniman]

People are much more sophisticated now due to how much access to information they have.

To add that not only is the information there but the ways of ancient man leading the masses is long gone as more people just think for themselves as men not sheep.(and women too! )

[valinors_sorrow]

To add that not only is the information there but the ways of ancient man leading the masses is long gone as more people just think for themselves as men not sheep.(and women too!!)

You got that right Tal. Lots less "corn-pone opinions" these days and I bet ol' Twain himself would be happy about that!! :rolleyes:

PS - that article is worth reading to the end, it has a killer punchline, LOL.

[Sentra]

Well thanks Tal, at least it's cool!

I thought the new ignorance was radical Islam! Seems others like to use the word ignorance for EFFECT. It shines the light on them themselves. I don't know what college y'all went to, but if you did go, you wouldn't hang your hat on such a negative word. Oh I forgot -you got a degree in what?
I don't know whether you are a believer or not Sentra- so by playing safe & generic faithwise, does that give you the go ahead to say I speak negatively of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, any other false religions or cults I believe are out there? Yes, I can defend Christianity. But I too have to live in a world with diversity. I choose to interact (mostly in person) with all different faiths & cultures, and base that interaction on the persons themselves and how they treat me- and expect vice-versa, and what is the purpose or objective for that interaction? That is what is important. It bears very little on my own private backround or theirs(as far as what we believe our faith to be) Does that make any sense?

Its my opinion, take it or leave it. And yes, I AM a believer. In what? Goodness. Faith. TOLERANCE. Honor. Discipline. Forgiveness. Many things. I DON'T believe in 'throwing stones', pointing out others because they are 'different' in what they believe, stuffing what I believe down someone else's throat, trying to drag someone into my own belief system, etc. I could go on and on. Playing it safe and generic, and by that you think I light incense when I am around a buddhist or bury apples when I pass a few wiccans in prayer.

'Playing it safe and generic' would only apply to someone who tosses a book of their faith around and uses it to their advantage when topics exactly like this one show up, in fear of using the brain they were given. To me? THAT doesn't make sense, but I understand why.

[Morganite]

To add that not only is the information there but the ways of ancient man leading the masses is long gone as more people just think for themselves as men not sheep.(and women too!!)

You could not be further off the mark in this.

In evidence you only have to look at the masses of the conservative right who hang on every word Bush says and follow him even unto destruction.

Humanity will always look to leaders, despite information that would suggest that they should abandon certain ones, but that is the nature of mnakind and the appeal of leaders and leadership.


For another example, take the Jonesboro scenario... Adfolphus Hitler... Georgius Bush... Benito Mussonlini... Benjamino Hinn... Jacobus Bakker... did I mention Georgius Bush?



M:)

Well thanks Tal, at least it's cool!

I thought the new ignorance was radical Islam! Seems others like to use the word ignorance for EFFECT. It shines the light on them themselves. I don't know what college y'all went to, but if you did go, you wouldn't hang your hat on such a negative word. Oh I forgot -you got a degree in what?
I don't know whether you are a believer or not Sentra- so by playing safe & generic faithwise, does that give you the go ahead to say I speak negatively of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, any other false religions or cults I believe are out there? Yes, I can defend Christianity. But I too have to live in a world with diversity. I choose to interact (mostly in person) with all different faiths & cultures, and base that interaction on the persons themselves and how they treat me- and expect vice-versa, and what is the purpose or objective for that interaction? That is what is important. It bears very little on my own private backround or theirs(as far as what we believe our faith to be) Does that make any sense?

The 'new ignorance' is militant anything, and that includes right wing neo-conservatives whose knee hjerk reactions to everything Ayatollah Bush says are responsible for injecting more fear into the political processes of the world in the name of religion. A Saddam Hussein and a George Bush each use the same methods of 'crowd' control. The only differenc being that one does not pretend to be a religious man and th eother claims to be guided by the voice of God.


The only degree I see is a degree of heat.


M:)RGANITE




.

[Sentra]

Anyone who gives their opinion on something leaves whatever is said open for analyzation, criticism, etc. Just doing my part;) Hehe.

[talaniman]

You could not be further off the mark in this.

In evidence you only have to look at the masses of the conservative right who hang on every word Bush says and follow him even unto destruction.

Humanity will always look to leaders, despite information that would suggest that they should abandon certain ones, but that is the nature of mnakind and the appeal of leaders and leadership.


For another example, take the Jonesboro scenario... Adfolphus Hitler... Georgius Bush... Benito Mussonlini... Benjamino Hinn... Jacobus Bakker... did I mention Georgius Bush?

Well there are still a lot of sheep and so there will always be a leader for them. The wheels turn slowly, but they still are turning.

[ordinaryguy]

Its like this... I hold my belief dear but I neither expect any of you to convert to it nor do I wish for, anticipate or make claims about any punishment for you if you don't. That Christianity does and is so vigorously defended by some here along this line of "convert or be punished" is what is getting everyone's dander up. You can hardly be surprised when some respond with .... "who me? how dare you!".... since you wouldn't like that whole "convert or be punished" thing handed out to you by some other faith, would you?

Isn't it interesting that aggressive proponents of Christianity can so easily disregard one of the central teachings of its founder--the golden rule? I have even heard them claim that they are following it when they browbeat others, claiming that if they were steeped in ignorance, they would want to be forcibly enlightened. That kind of foolish logic is why I prefer the inverse formulation of the golden rule: "Don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you".

[nymphetamine]

This must be the longest thread ever