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waltero · Jul 24, 2023, 08:48 PM

The Pharisees taught the scriptures.

The apostles’ teaching

Not at all the same thing. I hope one day you will know the difference.

How is -"the Church in trouble (according to Scripture)"?

You don't believe the scriptures so you will never see it, even if it was pointed out to you. You need Aks God to reveal.

jlisenbe · Jul 25, 2023, 06:36 AM

Not at all the same thing. I hope one day you will know the difference.

Jesus taught the Scriptures. John the Baptist taught the Scriptures. Paul taught the Scriptures. Peter taught the Scriptures. James taught the Scriptures. John taught the Scriptures. Apollos taught the Scriptures. The entire first century church taught and believed the Scriptures, so it would be good for Walter to simply acknowledge he posted yet another non-Biblical idea.

As to the Pharisees, their problem was in not realizing WHO the scriptures they were teaching pointed to. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me." The Bible acts a giant signpost pointing to the very source of life, and that is Christ Himself.

waltero · Jul 25, 2023, 01:21 PM

I am suggesting that, with a kind of worldly wisdom, we have been approaching the World on the grounds of apologetics instead of (which the apostle Paul), determining not to know anything "save Crist crucified".
We assert him, we proclaim him, we start with him because he is the center of the whole of our position.

waltero · Jul 25, 2023, 01:34 PM

I think we have become too familiar with the bible.

jlisenbe · Jul 25, 2023, 05:49 PM

You do realize you are teaching the scriptures? At any rate, we most certainly should be proclaiming Christ. That was well said. But as to the rest, please read and consider Titus 1:9.

Too familiar with the Bible? Our problem is unfamiliarity.

waltero · Aug 17, 2023, 05:56 PM

Our problem is unfamiliarity.

Not according to apologetics.

When I said I had to come to a conscious decision to simply believe in a Rock (Bible) for no other reason; I know and I Believe.

Others have stated that Apologetics (what we have studied and learned to know) Has saved them.
Who has become more familiar? Who's an idiot that has no reason?

Only those of us who have become too familiar...will always present itself having issue.

Wondergirl · Aug 17, 2023, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by waltero

We assert him, we proclaim him, we start with him because he is the center of the whole of our position.

And please don't hang your hat on how well you know the Bible. The one thing that is needed in this world is love. God loves us, and we are to gladly share that love, in Jesus' name, with others.

waltero · Aug 17, 2023, 07:59 PM

please don't hang your hat on how well you know the Bible.

Tell me about it.

Wondergirl · Aug 17, 2023, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by waltero

Tell me about it.

Knowledge won't get you anywhere. It's what you do with that knowledge that matters.

An answer to a question on Quora:

The Bible is a mix of myths, parables, poetry, allegories, wisdom literature, oratory, epistles, and stories with a moral. It's a beautiful interpretation of human experience from a divine perspective -- man does wrong, repents, and God forgives. Is it true? It definitely isn't a science or history textbook! The most useful life-changing instruction and truth to take from it are Jesus' words, "Love one another." Or, in other words, the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

jlisenbe · Aug 18, 2023, 04:35 AM

The most useful life-changing instruction and truth to take from it are Jesus' words, "Love one another." Or, in other words, the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The question then becomes what does it mean to, "Love one another."

I always find it interesting when someone says, "And please don't hang your hat on how well you know the Bible," but then claims to know that, "The Bible is a mix of myths, parables, poetry, allegories, wisdom literature, oratory, epistles, and stories with a moral." You can't have it both ways. And I can add that at no place in the NT is any part of the OT said to be mythical. Hmmm.

I would agree that simply knowing the Bible well is not enough, but when a person chooses to ignore large portions of the Bible simply because he/she doesn't like the message, or presents a message that is at variance with Bible teaching, then you have a serious problem.

Others have stated that Apologetics (what we have studied and learned to know) Has saved them.

No one here has stated that or said anything to that effect.

Only those of us who have become too familiar...will always present itself having issue.

What??

jlisenbe · Aug 18, 2023, 04:51 AM

We assert him, we proclaim him, we start with him because he is the center of the whole of our position.

I like that statement. That's a great comment.

waltero · Aug 18, 2023, 11:07 AM

No one here has stated that or said anything to that effect.

You might want to look again.

That is one of the main reasons why you have no comprehension of what it is I'm telling you.

Just like some of the earlier statements/quotes. You quoted somebody. I read the quote, followed by much of your response. After which I responded, thinking it was a quote from you. How could one make such a mistake? Maybe because you are living the Quote that you just posted. from much (all) of your responses, this topic (quote) might as well originated from you. And it doesn't help your case when - Of course, you are always saying one thing while claiming to mean another.
Similar to a previous discussion that took place here. Somebody Asked a Question regarding authority, only to say his question had nothing to do with authority??? Not to mention another issue He had with said Question even being a question. I happen to mention that I didn't think this was a (honest) question, Only for the questioner to come back and say it was an honest question. then when we got down to the matter, he said, it's not even a question??? I pointed these facts out and you were all so enraged that you couldn't see beyond your own anger and frustration.

Earlier in this post I mentioned we (some) have become too familar with the Bible. You can take that to mean what ever you like or don't like. What I think I mean by it is; Those of us (when I say us, I mean you) who speak Apologetics.

jlisenbe · Aug 18, 2023, 11:18 AM

Earlier in this post I mentioned we (some) have become too familar with the Bible. You can take that to mean what ever you like or don't like. What I think I mean by it is; Those of us (when I say us, I mean you) who speak Apologetics.

So when you said "we", you didn't include yourself, and when you say "us", you only mean me. Do you wonder why your posts are difficult to follow?

As to the rest of your post, I have no idea what you're talking about. If you can point to something specific, then we can discuss it, but a long statement about a quote followed by my response and then you thought the quote was from me? There is no way to answer that since there is no way to know what you are referring to.

I don't think that a Christian can become too familiar with the Bible. It's like suggesting that a mathematician can become too familiar with math, or a librarian can become too familiar with books.

I posted, "No one here has stated that or said anything to that effect." Your reply was, "You might want to look again." So you want me to find support for a statement you made for which you have no support? Uhmmm...think I'll pass on that.

Honestly Walter, I have no clue as to what it is that you are objecting to. Perhaps you can state it plainly.

waltero · Aug 18, 2023, 11:54 AM

Okay, let us go back.
Post 156

Why do I Trust the Bible

Because I trust God.

Circular reasoning, is it not?

Sertainly is

Does that not work for you?

To convince the unconverted is going to take much more than you could ever know of the Bible.

Happily, the textual and historical evidence for the accuracy of the Bible is really good.

If you go by this you are going about it the wrong way.

jlisenbe · Aug 18, 2023, 12:18 PM

This is post 156.

@JL: I don't think that post is the one I was referring to.
If you are going to quote someone, then you should know.

as far as WG, "she was referring to a response from another website." The fact is, she has said as much in many of her posts here.

Maybe so, but you claimed it was a quote by her when, in fact, it was not.

I don't know what your argument is about John 3:16. Love is a major theme of the verse and think that is clear from the text. Is it unconditional love? Hard to say, but I'm honestly not even clear on what it is you object to.

I have no reason to trust in the Bible.

I do, and it makes great sense to me, but I'm fine with you having your own position on the subject.

It does not contain any of the quotes you have above as supposedly coming from post 156, so no, that does not work for me.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...78#post3892278

Happily, the textual and historical evidence for the accuracy of the Bible is really good.

I also don't know why you would object to this.

jlisenbe · Aug 18, 2023, 12:57 PM

This is Peter's first sermon to a Gentile. I have underlined the portions where Peter makes an appeal to the historical truth of his message, thus engaging in apologetics. It is not a new idea.

37 You know the events that took place throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how he went about doing good and healing all who were under the tyranny of the devil, because God was with him. 39 We ourselves are witnesses of everything he did in both the Judean country and in Jerusalem, and yet they killed him by hanging him on a tree. 40 God raised up this man on the third day and caused him to be seen, 41 not by all the people, but by us whom God appointed as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be the judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

You can readily see that nearly all of it was pointing out the historical truth of the Gospel message. "You know the events," "We ourselves are witnesses," and pointing out that God "caused him to be seen," are all appeals to known history.

Wondergirl · Aug 18, 2023, 12:59 PM

Happily, the textual and historical evidence for the accuracy of the Bible is really good.

If you go by this you are going about it the wrong way.

waltero, what is the right way?

jlisenbe · Aug 18, 2023, 01:21 PM

waltero, what is the right way?

Great question.

waltero · Aug 18, 2023, 02:00 PM

Sorry, my mistake. I think it was post --

Regardless, I posted some quotes. If you were to have gone with that (that should have been enough for you to know what was going on.

jlisenbe · Aug 18, 2023, 02:09 PM

Regardless, I posted some quotes. If you were to have gone with that (that should have been enough for you to know what was going on.

You posted quotes but you can't even say who wrote them and are unable to give the context of the quotes, and yet that is "enough for you to know"? Walter, my friend, we are not mind-readers here.

Maybe you are trying to make the point that you believe the Bible because you trust in God? If so, then that's fine with me.