[arcura]

Tj3,
I said I believe all of the bible.
Please accept that.
Why must I tell you that over and over?
Fred

[sndbay]

Our path in life as servants to Our Father . 1. Knowing [Truth] that is Our Father, 2. Baptism [Gifted The Holy Ghost ], and to die with Christ. The death of our sins, thus alive in Christ. 3.God's Grace [ Christ] to believe in Him, and to beleive He raised to [ New Life] in Heaven and Promise of His return.

Until His return we are to live righteously, existing more righteous then those exampled in the bible.

1. Who is Truth? Our Father "ONE"
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

2. Baptism=The Holy Ghost & Dead with Christ
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. Grace New Life, Alive
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

Essential to Salvation as a Servant

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Full Well Knowing
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I said I believe all of the bible.
Please accept that.
Why must I tell you that over and over?
Fred

Because you keep claiming a works based gospel which the Bible says is wrong.

[De Maria]

Because you keep claiming a works based gospel which the Bible says is wrong.

The Gospel says that faith is work:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Jesus says that we must work to be saved:

Matt 25 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

The epistles say the same:
Romans 2 5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.

6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Hebrews 12 28 Therefore receiving an immoveable kingdom, we have grace; whereby let us serve, pleasing God, with fear and reverence. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

So it is you TJ who are violating Scripture. Arcura is correct.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

The Gospel says that faith is work:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Perhaps you missed the words "of God".

Jesus says that we must work to be saved:

This verse said nothing about working to be saved.

The epistles say the same:[I]

Nor those verses. You are mixing up rewards, and faithfulness after salvation with the requirements for salvation.

Show me a single verse which says that works are essential for salvation.

[De Maria]

Perhaps you missed the words "of God".

Lets review the entire verse with context so you can see how you are misunderstanding what Jesus said:

The Jews asked, (follow the bold letters):

John 6 28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

And Jesus answered:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Obviously then, the Jews wanted to know, what does God want us to do. And Jesus answered God wants you to believe in me. Now, believing in Jesus is the definition of faith in Jesus. So faith is a work.

This verse said nothing about working to be saved.

Sure it does. It outlines what you must do to attain glory and the verse following outlines that if you don't do that, you will be condemned. So, add two and two together.

Nor those verses. You are mixing up rewards, and faithfulness after salvation with the requirements for salvation.

No I'm not. Read the words yourself:

Romans 2 5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.

This says that if one is impenitent, he stores up wrath on the day of judgement.

Since you don't believe in Purgatory, this means that individual is going to hell.

[b]6 Who will render to every man according to his works.

This further explains why that individual is going to hell. Because God will render to every man according to his works. That means if one does good, one goes to heaven. If one does evil, one goes to hell.

7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work,seek glory and honour and incorruption,

Now pay attention. If we do good because we seek to go to heaven we will be rewarded with what?

eternal life:

If you said "eternal life", you get the greenie.

Now, stay focused.

8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

What do those receive who work evil as described in verse 8?

9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil,

Tribulation and anguish. Since you don't believe in Purgatory, that means that those who work evil will go to hell.

I don't see how it could be more plainly explained.

of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But I guess just to make certain, St. Paul repeats it.

Show me a single verse which says that works are essential for salvation.

Read Romans 2 verse 8 - 10 above.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Lets review the entire verse with context so you can see how you are misunderstanding what Jesus said:

The Jews asked, (follow the bold letters):

John 6 28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

And Jesus answered:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Obviously then, the Jews wanted to know, what does God want us to do. And Jesus answered God wants you to believe in me. Now, believing in Jesus is the definition of faith in Jesus. So faith is a work.

I am amazed at how you managed to manipulate that to suggest that what scripture says is a work of God, is, in your view a work of man.

[arcura]

De Maria,
I seriously fear that Tj3 will never see that "faith without works is dead", useless or that we MUST "WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

De Maria,
I seriously fear that Tj3 will never see that "faith without works is dead", useless or that we MUST "WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

We've been through this before. In Greek, faith and faithfulness are one and the same (the same word even). If you have no works to show, then are you being faithful?

And how would an unbeliever be faithful to God? Scripture says that an unbeliever cannot be faithful. Therefore works have no merit for an unbeliever. The works therefore are an indicator of our faithfulness to our Saviour.

I note that you can never harmonize faith without works is dead with "not of works lest any man should boast", and yet reading it with this understanding of Greek, the harmonize nicely.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Yes we have been through that before and I have told you that I will believe the translations in the best versions of the bible, not yours translation versions.
Fred

[arcura]

saintjoan
Your tongue in cheek statement is not well take or acurate.
The Catholic Church very much does believe in and trust the bible.
There teachings and writings and The Catechism of The Catholic Church proves that.
After all The Catholic Church promulgated the bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It knows if far better and any other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

So you do not believe what Ephesians says:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

It says NOT of works. That means NO works. Salvation does not have anything to do with works. This is a mis-understanding caused by those who read the English out of context.

Tj3, your faith is strong..

Pray Daily
Psalms 17: 6 I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech. Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust [in Thee], from those that rise up against them. Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Daily we need Our Heaven Father to protect us from falling to sin

Psalms 17:4-5 Concerning the works of men, by the word of Thy lips, I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. Hold up my goings in thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.

We have defence against daily sin

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[Wherefore?] Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and [rock of offence:] and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.

The Marking of the Devil
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the [devils also believe,] and tremble.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

This is Everyone's Question..Is faith without works dead?

The scriptures in James 20 go on to say how Abraham was save by his works that were done by faith and how this example shows that works made faith perfect. James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works [a man is justified, and not by faith only.]

Good Day to you

[sndbay]

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Detail this scripture down step by step.

1. By Grace you are saved..

2. Not of yourself..

3. It is a Gift of God

4. Not given of works. (So that a man could boast.)

This details that works will not give you Grace.. It does not come of man.. But it comes of God's love.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Yes we have been through that before and I have told you that I will believe the translations in the best versions of the bible, not yours translation versions.
Fred

Fred,

I appreciate the compliment, but I did not translate the Bible. On the other hand, you could always go to the Greek to validate what you claim to be a better translation as I do.

[De Maria]

Jesus clarifies this question when he stated,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me has temporary life. You see if you have eternal life and loose it, then it cannot be eternal.

Actually if you believe what is written in the Bible, then you would have full assurance of eternal life.

Not if you understand the Bible. Here is what St. Paul says:
Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Hebrews 12 28 Therefore receiving an immoveable kingdom, we have grace; whereby let us serve, pleasing God, with fear and reverence. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And St. John would not contradict that idea because the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. So what does St. John mean?

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

He means that you must truly believe. Not just claim to believe. This is not once saved always saved. Lets look a the first chapter of 1 John:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Notice all the "ifs". And lets just break down verse 6.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.

Obviously, it doesn't matter if we claim to know Jesus, what matters is how we live our life. So this is not what Protestants like saintjoan call ABSOLUTE assurance. It is conditional assurance as the Scripture's teach and as the Catholic Church teaches. Because ultimately we don't judge ourselves, it is God who judges us:

1 Corinthians 4 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self. 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord

Of course Bible believing Christians are wrong,

The Catholic Church is the true Bible believing Church. Those who teach Sola Scriptura twist the meaning of the Bible teach this man made doctrine. As has been proved before, Sola Scriptura says that the Bible is the sole source of doctrine. But the Bible does not teach that the Bible is the sole source of doctrine. Therefore the source for Sola Scriptura is not the Bible and that makes Sola Scriptura a false teaching.

For the church (Roman Catholic) teaches that those who believe what is written in the Bible concerning eternal life are anathama.

That's a blatant lie. The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is inerrant because it contains the Word of God.

And we all know the Roman Catholic Church is to be trusted more than God's Holy Word.

Not true. The Catholic Church teaches the Word of God.

The Catholic Church does teach that people like saintjoan who contradict Church teaching are to be avoided however. St. Paul puts it like this:

Galatians 1 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[cozyk]

The Bible is CLEAR on this...IF you are a Blood bought, born again Christian, IN CHRIST, CHRIST IN YOU, sealed with the HOlY SPIRIT of promise, there is NOTHING and I mean NOTHING that can cause you to LOSE your salvation! Period...

I will ONLY add this....i said ...IF!

What IF you were born again , but upon further inspection you changed your mind and decided that christianity was too fear/threat based, exclusive, and that Gods acceptance of spending eternity with him was "conditional?" This still won't cause you to lose your salvation??

[cozyk]

Tj3,
We have discussed this on other boards so why are you bringing it up again here if not to cause trouble.
God has promised assured salvation (know-so-salvation) IF we do certain things an having faith is but one of them. So the bible says.
That is what I believe; the bible.
And I WILL NOT discuss it further with YOU.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That does not sound like "peace and kindness" Fred. Sounds kind of mean and hateful.:(

[De Maria]

That does not sound like "peace and kindness" Fred. Sounds kinda mean and hateful.:(

Sounds like you're baiting Christians. Christian baiters are reserved to the Religious Discussion boards. The Christian board is for Christians and people seeking Christian answers.

Bye!

[Tj3]

Sounds like you're baiting Christians. Christian baiters are reserved to the Religious Discussion boards. The Christian board is for Christians and people seeking Christian answers.

It looked to me like he was making an observation. The boards are not reserved for Christians alone. Indeed, I would like to see both Christians and non-Christians willing to interact respectfully.

[Tj3]

What IF you were born again , but upon further inspection you changed your mind and decided that christianity was too fear/threat based, exclusive, and that Gods acceptance of spending eternity with him was "conditional?" This still won't cause you to lose your salvation???

Scripture agrees that it is possible to walk away from your salvation, but it suggests that it may not be possible to come back again.

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

I doubt that there are many who do so. Many people who say that they are saved and turn away may not have been saved in the first place (Matt 7:21-23), and it is my opinion that the numbers who are truly saved and then wal;k away from it are few indeed.