[Lilmkiss]

Sorry, but that is not the doctrine. There are THREE Persons in ONE God.

If you read what I said in context I SAID that they are thee persons in one God. I was making a retorical question that already had an answer it was NOT and i repeat NOT my point of veiw but simply showing acura that it was a convoluted point of view. This is all.

Well, the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and She teaches that doctrine. The Catholic Church is called the Pillar of Truth in Scripture and is therefore infallible.

No he founded the Church NOT the catholic church. The catholic church was created by by the Ceaser after Jesus had already created the church (which was a Juish comimunity not and I repeat not a Roman community aka the Roman Catholic church was NOT the first church). And since the Roman Catholic church was created by man and run by man and man is falible there fore the Roman catholic church is Falible!

I believe the Catholic Church.

So you believe man over God. Personaly I believe the bible not people (the pope is not infalibel

Exactly! Look around. The culture has changed from a culture who understood ABSOLUTE Truths to one who prefers to believe whatever is between their ears. This is a RELATIVISTIC Society.

Yay we agree on something!

Apparently you are going by the secular definition. However, you are on a Christian forum and we are discussing the Theological definition of Person and God.

(God uses man never does he use person beings or otherwise these are words we added, he never said he made people in his own image he said that he made man in his own image) so by Definition you me and anyone who uses these words are saying harisy so on and so fourth (dont argue simaticts what's the point take the message NOT individual words, OK this detracts from what others say so if anything discuss the concept IN context and not to dirive meanings that where never inteded that includes in Theology.

As they say at Burger King, "Have it your way!";)

(Wow strong attack :p if you want to attack me go below the belt and prove me wrong with scripture please. )

[Lilmkiss]

Lilmkiss
Sorry, I believe what the bible says.
Several passages indicate that Purgatory exists.
I have posted them before.
Fred

I have shown everything you have in context to the verses before and after and have discredited your clames and others as well have done so if you want post these verses again and I will do the same.

[arcura]

Lilmkiss
That is your opinion.
I saw no discredit of those verses, only attempts to do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[maje3]

NEVER, NEVER did Jesus go to hell! He went to the waiting place for those that where going to heaven and preached to them. At no point in the bible did Jesus ever, ever go to hell. This is only taught by the roman catholic church and was introduced by the apostles creed which again is only used in the roman catholic church.

Ephesians 4:9 "Now that He ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

Before the death of Christ both the lost and the saved went to Hades (Sheol) although it was divided into the place of torment and the paradise of God (also called Abraham's bosom.) Luke 16:19-31

You can also refer to Rev 1:18. Jesus has the keys to hell and death.

[Lilmkiss]

Ephesians 4:9 "Now that He ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

Before the death of Christ both the lost and the saved went to Hades (Sheol) although it was divided into the place of torment and the paradise of God (also called Abraham's bosom.) Luke 16:19-31

You can also refer to Rev 1:18. Jesus has the keys to hell and death.

It also Sais in Rev that the gates to hell will be opened once and closed once therefor if Jesus went into hell the it would have been opend twice and closed twice no?

Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body of Christ
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[b] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.


I am sorry but this is talking about Jesus comeing to Earth not hell note the Earthly reagons meaning EARTH not HELL anyway this was not a question but a statement that to assend he first had to desend to our level.

[Lilmkiss]

Lilmkiss
That is your opinion.
I saw no discredit of those verses, only attempts to do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If you want to start this post the scripture and I will be more then willing to put it into context I emplore you to do so.

[maje3]

Lilmkiss,
It says he descended into the Lower parts of the earth, not the earth. What are you referring to in Revelation about the gates of hell being open and closed once?

[Lilmkiss]

Lilmkiss,
It says he descended into the Lower parts of the earth, not the earth. What are you referring to in Revelation about the gates of hell being open and closed once?

Just give me a moment I had my bible in my room but I can't find it I have had this desuction more then once I will post it up tonight

[maje3]

O.K. I'll read it tomorrow. Have a good night.

[arcura]

Lilmkiss,
Jesus informs us that the Gates of hell cannot stop The Church from saving soules.
Thus...
Matthew 16: 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.''
17. Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.''
Gates are a battlement to keep people out not to prevent people form leaving.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcira)

[Lilmkiss]

Lilmkiss,
Jesus informs us that the Gates of hell cannot stop The Church from saving soules.
Thus...
Matthew 16: 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.''
17. Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.''
Gates are a battlement to keep people out not to prevent people form leaving.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcira)

And on this rock I will build My church (This is speeking about the Base that he Built this is not speeking about Peter being the rock of the Church; this has been explained by many people other then me)

Second

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Meaning that when he shuts the doors of hell they will not be opend for anyone when he shuts it it is shut no one will come through plain and simple.

[JoeT777]

and on this rock I will build My church (This is speeking about the Base that he Built this is not speeking about Peter being the rock of the Church; this has been explained by many people other then me)

second

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Meaning that when he shuts the doors of hell they will not be opend for anyone when he shuts it it is shut no one will come through plain and simple.

Matt 16 13 20 The Primacy of Peter (The first, Simon who is called Peter Matt 10:2)

18. Et ego dico tibi, quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram ædificabo Ecclesiam meam, et portæ inferi non prævalebunt adversus eam. (That thou art Peter)

The Catholic Church has always understood the Scripture to give Primacy to Peter. This was illustrated in a letter written by Pope Clement I (third in succession to Peter and had personally known Peter) to the Corinthians (circa) 95 AD claiming authority over Corinth. St. Irenaeus tells the second hand account from St. Polycarp where John was heard to say “the faithful wo are everywhere must agree with this Church (Rome) because of its more important principality.” During the Councils and Synods surrounding the early heresies the Popes decision settled the matter. This is illustrated in 431 AD. Where the Bishops responded to Pope Celestine's decision, “He [Peter] lives even to this time, and always in his successor's gives judgment.”

Only after 1520 some have asked why this reference is only found in one Gospel and not the others, Warren Carroll suggest the rather simple answer: “Why are Christ's words to Peter found only in Matthew, and not in the other gospels? Because Mathew was there, with Peter and the Twelve, on the road to Caesarea Philippi in the summer of 29 A.D.: he heard the dialogue himself, in his own Aramaic language. Mark the Evangelist was not there; his information came from Peter, and we have very early testimony that out of humility Peter did not include Christ's praise of him in his catechesis. John had the other gospels before him as he wrote, and rarely repeated what they had already reported.. . “ That the words don't appear in Mark's Gospel was influenced by Peter's humility. It would be easy to suggest this as speculation however Victor of Antioch, the first commentator of Mark, mentions it as does Eusebius of Caesarea. Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 338. (see also footnote 139)

In the Douay Rheims the verse reads as follows:

13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cæsarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.

In the way of setting the scene; Caesarea Phillippi is in the valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon as mentioned in Josh 11:17 or Baal Hemon as mentioned in Judg 3:3. Of particular interest is a land feature of a massive rock face. One of the tributaries for the Jordan River flows through the area. The area was liberated by the Maccabean revolt in 167 B.C. In 4 B.C. one of Herod the Great s three sons, Philip, built the Roman Grecian of Caesarea Philippi to honor the Roman emperor.

You can imagine Jesus with this huge rock wall as a backdrop, asking twice (not once but twice), “Whom to they say that I am?” No other disciples could give the answer but Simon. Simon confessed Jesus as being both the Messiah and the “Son of the Living God.” God had revealed to Simon what no other man on earth knew; Christ was the Second Person of the One Devine God.

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I can't claim any significance to the number of times “blessed art thou” is used in the New Testament. However, it is used only three times, twice in Luke 1: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women... 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be; and once in Matthew 16:17. It's only used once by Jesus. (this holds true in the NKJV also) In my estimation, like Mary, God seats Peter in a special Chair for our salvation; the first of 266 whose “successor's gives judgment,” St. Peter, St. Linus, St. Anacletus, St. Clement I, St. Alexander I, St. Sixtus I, St. Telesphorus, St. Hyginus… Benedict XVI

In plain language of today, the simple meaning of the verse 18 becomes: because this was revealed to you by God, I will call you Rock and on this Rock I will build my church; hell won't prevail against it.

19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

The “keys” are the keys to the kingdom of heaven, similar to the “keys” mentioned in Isaiah 22. With the transfer of the keys, one to another, power and authority is also transferred; Christ gives Peter the supreme authority over the Church and to bind and loose, both in heaven and on earth.

“In regard to the Petros Kepha argument made by some, “the play of words involved in naming Simon “Rock” is as clear in Aramaic as in English, if we use the literal translation “Rock” for the Aramaic Kepha rather than “Peter” which is derived from the Greek Petros. In Greek the noun for rock is feminine. Therefore it is unsuitable for a man's name, and Peter is named Petros while the precise word for rock is petra, making the meaning a little less clear. But Christ's words to Peter were spoken in Aramaic and first recorded in Armaic in Matthew's Gospel; furthermore, we know that Peter was later often called Kepha or Cephas as well as Petros.” “Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 349 footnote 135

Mat 16:15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In verse 17 Jesus is obviously pleased seeing that this knowledge didn't come from human reason, but rather the knowledge was a Grace from Aba (I'm told, that Christ was the first to refer to God as Aba [Father] – did you know that? Interesting isn't it). So as a reward, or as acknowledgement, you would have Jesus say, Woe to you Peter... you have not gained access, yet you have stopped those who wished to enter! And thereafter say I will build a church on your faith to which the gates of hell will not prevail. Excuse me for finding this impossible to swallow. It doesn't even meet you definition of “scripture interprets scripture.”

It's interesting that you should bring up the book of Revelations. Matt 16:15-19; especially, the Key of David that the Holy One opens and no man shuts. Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church of Philadelphia write: These things saith the Holy One and the true one, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and no man shutteth, shutteth and no man openeth: 8 I know thy works. Behold, I have given before thee a door opened, which no man can shut: because thou hast a little strength and hast kept my word and hast not denied my name. The key of the House of David relate to the same earthly keys given Eliacim, son of Helcias. "the key of the house of David" is conferred upon Eliacim, the son of Helcias, as the symbol of full and unlimited authority over the Kingdom of Juda. This too would be a direct reference to the Primacy of authority, a very good reason to accept St. Peter as the Prince of the Church Militant. But I would suggest it wasn't the set of keys conferred on St. Peter, the keys to heaven the right to bind or loose in heaven and earth. The reason is that these keys are located in heaven, held by an angel church that is using the keys to keep open the door, presumably the door of holy righteousness. Another reason I don't think they are the same keys is because we see three sets of keys in sacred Scripture, the Keys of Heaven, the Key of the bottomless pit (hell), and the Keys of the House of David. Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet: and I saw a star fall from heaven upon the earth. And there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit. But in Revelations, where John is escorted through God's Kingdom in Heaven, we don't hear of the Key's of Heaven. Are we to presume that there are Keys to earthly kingdoms, hellish kingdoms, but no keys to heaven in heaven? And the reason, the Keys to Heaven reside with the Successors of St. Peter.

JoeT

[arcura]

Lilmkiss,
If you seriously read the entire episode about The Rock with an open mind you will see that Jesus was talking to Peter and about Peter bing The Rock.
Jesus gave Simon the new name of Rock (that is Peter).
It is obvious that Peter IS The Rock on which Jesus built His Church.
The bible says it and history prove it.
That is a fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[JoeT777]

Lilmkiss,
If you seriously read the entire episode about The Rock with an open mind you will see that Jesus was talking to Peter and about Peter bing The Rock.
Jesus gave Simon the new name of Rock (that is Peter).
It is obvious that Peter IS The Rock on which Jesus built His Church.
The bible says it and history prove it.
That is a fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I agree fully. (didn't I just write that?)

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT777
Yes you did, but I wanted to say it a bit differently to hopefully make if more clear and give a bit different way of understanding it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[maje3]

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Meaning that when he shuts the doors of hell they will not be opend for anyone when he shuts it it is shut no one will come through plain and simple.[/QUOTE]



HI Lilmkiss,
This scripture is saying that when God shuts a door no one can open it and when he opens a door no one can shut it. It's not talking about the doors of hell.
In other words what God has for you is for you.

[JoeT777]

Revelation 3

To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Meaning that when he shuts the doors of hell they will not be opend for anyone when he shuts it it is shut no one will come through plain and simple.

HI Lilmkiss,
This scripture is saying that when God shuts a door no one can open it and when he opens a door no one can shut it. It's not talking about the doors of hell.
In other words what God has for you is for you.

We can see that the suggestion for the keys to "bind and loosen" are conferred on every Christian is terribly illogical. We see in John 17:11 that Christ prays for us to be ONE: And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me: that they may be one, as we also are. If we are to be ONE and we all have the key to bind and loosen, then what I bind you can loosen (and vice versa); which of course isn't being ONE.

Matt 16 very clearly confers the responsibility, and the means to carry out the responsibility, i.e. authority, to Peter.

JoeT

[sndbay]

Lilmkiss,
If you seriously read the entire episode about The Rock with an open mind you will see that Jesus was talking to Peter and about Peter bing The Rock.
Jesus gave Simon the new name of Rock (that is Peter).
It is obvious that Peter IS The Rock on which Jesus built His Church.
The bible says it and history prove it.
That is a fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

May God reveal the Truth to each reader. When Peter is called the rock, it is because Peter is baptized and walks in Perfect Faith, believing in Christ Jesus as Our Lord and Saviour.
Those that are baptized walk in Christ and with Christ, believing in the Saviour of the World.


Peter was asked by Jesus...

1.Peter, Do you love Me? Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.

2. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee.

3. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee

We now walk as Peter did, in Christ... Do you Love Christ? YES Lord, above all.


By choice in mind and heart of Free Will... Who do you follow? Christ Jesus, The Rock

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Choice? Do you believe Our Father's Word?

(John 21:15 John 21:16 John 21:17)

[De Maria]

May God reveal the Truth to each reader. When Peter is called the rock, it is because Peter is baptized and walks in Perfect Faith, believing in Christ Jesus as Our Lord and Saviour.
Those that are baptized walk in Christ and with Christ, believing in the Saviour of the World.


Peter was asked by Jesus...

1.Peter, Do you love Me? Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.

2. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee.

3. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee

We now walk as Peter did, in Christ... Do you Love Christ? YES Lord, above all.


By choice in mind and heart of Free Will... Who do you follow? Christ Jesus, The Rock

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Choice? Do you believe Our Father's Word?

(John 21:15 John 21:16 John 21:17)

But you are neglecting the fact that Jesus also said that He was building His Church on that Rock and that He was giving His Keys to the Kingdom to that Rock.

Therefore, Jesus installed Peter as the Rock of His Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Wondergirl]

Therefore, Jesus installed Peter as the Rock of His Church.

No. It is the belief of the Catholic Church that Peter was the rock. No Protestant church body agrees with that. Protestants believe the Church is founded on Jesus Christ, the Rock.