[nigel5]

"Ok, so why send people who dont believe to hell then, why not just end their existence? Do you understand this point - without the threat of hell (the stick) you (religious people) have to work harder at selling heaven (the carrot)."

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -- John 3:16

Now, what does "perish" mean?

It means the opposite of "life".

Dead as a doorknob.

I hope this gives you comfort.

1) Christians believe in God or Jehovah... The maker of all things.

2) Christians believe God will pass judgment at the end of days!

3) Christians don't decide who goes to hell and who doesn't...

4) And lastly christians don't give out carrots... if we don't have any!

Geez!

[deist]

Ave been a christian for 23 years! And at no time do i claim that i know every single thing it says! THATS A FAT LIE! Don't say you know the bible...show you know the bible, PLEASE!

You can ask me about any doctrine in the bible & I can give you information on it, & it will be according to the bible. I don't agree with it now, but I still know it.

[deist]

Deists take the bible more literally than fundamentalists do, & fundmentalists are generally literalists when it comes to the bible, unless they are trying to justify a belief of theirs when they don't want to accept something at face value. For example, in Matthew 24 when Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled", we deists take it literally & at face value, that by "this generation", Jesus meant the generation of Israelites then living in the first century. We don't add interpretations to Jesus' supposed words, we take them at face value. Likewise when Jesus told the high priest in Mark 14:62 that he would see Jesus sitting at the right hand of power & coming in the clouds of heaven, we take Jesus at his word without adding our own arbitrary interpretations. We believe Jesus meant the high preist would still be alive when Jesus came again, in the first century, which is the plain sense of the passage when you don't arbitrarily interpret it.

[nigel5]

Deists take the bible more literally than fundamentalists do, & fundmentalists are generally literalists when it comes to the bible, unless they are trying to justify a belief of theirs when they don't want to accept something at face value. For example, in Matthew 24 when Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled", we deists take it literally & at face value, that by "this generation", Jesus meant the generation of Israelites then living in the first century. We don't add interpretations to Jesus' supposed words, we take them at face value. Likewise when Jesus told the high priest in Mark 14:62 that he would see Jesus sitting at the right hand of power & coming in the clouds of heaven, we take Jesus at his word without adding our own arbitrary interpretations. We believe Jesus meant the high preist would still be alive when Jesus came again, in the first century, which is the plain sense of the passage when you don't arbitrarily interpret it.

Look at the context by which Jesus was talking in matthew 24 again... For a person who claims to know scripture!

Let me take a quote from the bible literally like you keep on saying, this verse is right before the one you just quoted!

(the rest of matthew 24 precedes this quote and it all talks of the end days my friend :))
... So you also, "when you see" all these things, "know that it is near"- at the doors!
"assuredly I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will by no means pass away.
But of "that day" and hour no one knows, not even the angles in heaven but my father only!

Tell me again you understand scripture!

[nigel5]

On mark 14.62

Jesus was talking about his second coming... Geez! So what you mean to tell me is that jesus meant he would be coming immediately after he ascended to heaven? Hahaha.. now that's not taking the bible literally that's being ignorant.


"the dead in christ will rise first....followed by the rest of the earth for judgement! Everyone will see Jesus coming in the end days.....fora light will be seen as far as the west is from the east..and so shall be the coming of the son of man!"

[speechlesstx]

Deists take the bible more literally than fundamentalists do, & fundmentalists are generally literalists when it comes to the bible, unless they are trying to justify a belief of theirs when they don't want to accept something at face value. For example, in Matthew 24 when Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled", we deists take it literally & at face value, that by "this generation", Jesus meant the generation of Israelites then living in the first century. We don't add interpretations to Jesus' supposed words, we take them at face value. Likewise when Jesus told the high priest in Mark 14:62 that he would see Jesus sitting at the right hand of power & coming in the clouds of heaven, we take Jesus at his word without adding our own arbitrary interpretations. We believe Jesus meant the high preist would still be alive when Jesus came again, in the first century, which is the plain sense of the passage when you don't arbitrarily interpret it.

Deist, I will grant that many people - not just fundamentalists - tend to complicate things. And, we do need to be open to things that may make us a squirm a little. Fair enough?

However, as much as I can appreciate the author of God vs. the Bible that you recommend, "trying to save" my mind from that "dangerous" faith called Christianity - no thanks, my mind is fine.

As I suspected, this work not only asks and answers the same questions that skeptics before him have, he relied on their work:

Acknowledgements

I would like to express my gratitude to the authors of different skeptic websites and information resources that I frequently visited as I came to a greater understanding of my own spiritual outlook. The insights they provided were invaluable, not just to me but to others as we all search for the truth. Among these web authors are:

* Steven Wells who wrote the Skeptics Annotated Bible (skepticsannotatedbible.com), which was of great help in pointing out many of the absurdities and contradictions of the Bible.

* The “Rev” Brendan Powell Smith and his ingenious work with Lego to tell the Bible’s story, including some of the passages most embarrassing to Christians. His website, thebricktestament.com was of great assistance to me in pointing out some of the more absurd and morally bankrupt passages of the Bible.

* Cliff Walker, the author of his “labor of love”, Positive Atheism (positiveatheism.org) for the exhaustive list of famous quotes, including those of our founding fathers. I also thank him for helping to expose the fraudulent founding father quotes, disingenuously spread by certain conservative Christians.

* Kenneth Humphreys, who authored both the “Jesus Never Existed” book and website (jesusneverexisted.com), for his tireless and exhaustive historical research into the Jesus myth.

* Brian Fleming for his documentary about the Jesus myth, “The God Who Wasn’t There” and his advice and assistance as I sought to publish this book.

* Reginald “The Infidel Guy” Finley for his informative radio program.

So see, before you question my openness to research you should see research to see if what I said was true - or follow that "do unto others" thing and take me at my word.

His is the sort of nonsense that doesn't attract many from his targeted audience, much like the Christians and Muslims that categorize him as "in league with the devil" don't inspire such skeptics to give them any serious consideration:

I fight because I believe that these two religions are the greatest causes of misery, stagnation and bigotry in all of human history. I fight because of how much happier and more productive human civilization would be without them. I fight because if we don't bury our beliefs in Jesus, Mohamed and the Devil, they will bury us.

The old Crusades type argument by outrage again. I don't know about the Crusaders, that was well before my time, and I can't vouch for all Muslims but I wonder if there is any particular group that gives more of their time, money and other resources in helping others than most?

However, one need not look at the more dramatically horrifying consequences of these religions to get an idea of their cost to humanity over the ages. In addition to terror and bloodshed, these faiths also bring sociological and technological stagnation. It’s no accident that the period in Western civilization when Christianity ruled supreme is called “The Dark Ages”. Neither should it be any surprise that once this Christian stranglehold on the mind and imagination of humanity was finally broken, this period was called “The Age of Enlightenment”.

Yes of course, things are so much better with those backward Christians out of the way.

I don’t hate the Christian or the Muslim. They are the minds that I’m trying to save. It is the institutions, these viral memes, that are my enemy. Through rational discourse, I believe they can be brought down. As Soviet-style Communism peacefully collapsed one day when its adherents finally got tired of living under its yoke, I hope that these malevolent faiths will also go peacefully in the night.

Well now, that's how to win friends and influence people... attack all that's dear to them. Thanks, but no thanks. If I can't get past the preface without being attacked and offended multiple times I have no reason to give him any credibility when it comes to "the proper way to serve God."

[NeedKarma]

Was the bible written for an elite group that must study it for years to gain any understanding or is it for the common man?

[nigel5]

Jesus himself doesn't know when the He's coming Only God knows... he only mentioned the sighns that lead up to it...
And again I don't believe in the trinity.. so don't give me that point of view! I read the bible myself and understand it myself :) These days you can't rust anyone to tell you what the bible say... am saying :)

[nigel5]

Was the bible written for an elite group that must study it for years to gain any understanding or is it for the common man?

I believe the bible was written for people who accept God. Lets be real here, if you don't care whether God exists or not the only reason you look at a bible is to figure out how you can diapprove it. I have no problem with that... but the fact still remains, there are close to 2 billion pple who believe in this book... and there is no way... not even in 500 yrs, you can tell them how and when to pick it up. That's a fact!

[NeedKarma]

What's a fact?

[firmbeliever]

Deist,

Thank you for your concern of my welfare as a muslim.
My mind does not need any saving nor does my soul, I am fine with submission to One Almighty and He alone knows what is my future,present and past.

I really do hope you put as much effort to understand that it might not be us that needs saving, maybe it is you who needs saving.
From a life of fighting with believers of different faiths to make us change our beliefs to yours.
Haven't you thought of it this way,that I maybe at peace in my religion,both body and soul?

[deist]

Look at the context by which Jesus was talking in matthew 24 again....For a person who claims to know scripture!

let me take a quote from the bible literaly like you keep on saying, this verse is right before the one you just quoted!

(the rest of matthew 24 preceeds this quote and it all talks of the end days my friend :))
.......So you also, "when you see" all these things, "know that it is near"- at the doors!
"assuredly i say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will by no means pass away.
But of "that day" and hour no one knows, not even the angles in heaven but my father only!

Tell me again you understand scripture!

Jesus said "this generation" shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. Take with this his words to the high priest in Mark 14:62. Now add:
1 Corinthians 7: 29 -31. Paul says the time until the 2nd coming was so short that the Corinthians must drastically change the way they live.
1 Thessalonians 4: 16-18. Paul believed the 2nd coming would come in his lifetime, as evidenced by the fact that he includes himself among those still living at the time of the 2nd coming ("we" which are alive).
1 Thessalonians 5: 23. Paul's prayer is that the Thessalonians will be good until Jesus' 2nd coming, indicating he expected it in their lifetime.
1 Peter 4: 7. Peter believed the end of all things was at hand in his day.
1 John 2: 18. John thought he was living in the last times.
Revelation 3: 11; 22: 7, 12, 20. John believed Jesus was coming quickly.
When Jesus said "this" generation he meant the people then living. The idea that it referred to a future generation is a 20th century invention to explain why he didn't come in the first century, & as an excuse for why christians should continue to look for the 2nd coming.

[Tj3]

Jesus said "this generation" shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.

Did you look to see what generation he was talking about? Context is the key.

As for the references to things happening quickly or soon, remember these are relative terms. You provided verses which appear to imply a short timeframe, and insist that these verses mean that it must be within the lifetime of those living in the 1st century. But that timeframe is from God's perspective, which is not always the same as ours. For example, let's look at the book of Haggai:

Hag 2:6-7
6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts: "Once more (it is a little while) I will shake
Heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; 7 and I will shake all nations, and they shall
Come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the
LORD of hosts.
NKJV

How long is a “little while”?

Haggai was written about 500 BC and Jesus, “the desire of all nations” referred to by this
Prophecy, did not come until 500 years later. That is what God called “a little while”. So we
Need to be careful about trying to quantify these terms within our timeframe, but rather let's look to what God has to say with respect to the specifics of the timing of these events.

[deist]

Did you look to see what generation he was talking about? Context is the key.

As for the references to things happening quickly or soon, remember these are relative terms. You provided verses which appear to imply a short timeframe, and insist that these verses mean that it must be within the lifetime of those living in the 1st century. But that timeframe is from God's perspective, which is not always the same as ours. For example, let's look at the book of Haggai:

Hag 2:6-7
6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts: "Once more (it is a little while) I will shake
heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; 7 and I will shake all nations, and they shall
come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,' says the
LORD of hosts.
NKJV

How long is a “little while”?

Haggai was written about 500 BC and Jesus, “the desire of all nations” referred to by this
prophecy, did not come until 500 years later. That is what God called “a little while”. So we
need to be careful about trying to quantify these terms within our timeframe, but rather let's look to what God has to say with respect to the specifics of the timing of these events.

You are merely assuming that the desire of all nations is the coming of Jesus.

[Tj3]

You are merely assuming that the desire of all nations is the coming of Jesus.

I share that assumption with historical precedent.

It is well to remember, however, that from earliest days the majority of Christian interpreters followed the Jewish tradition in referring the passage to the coming of Israel's Messiah. It seems clear to these interpreters that the longing all nations have in common must be their yearning for the Deliverer, whether or not they realize the nature of their desire or the identity of its true fulfillment in the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Source: The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)

I would suggest that the onus is on you to come up with a feasible alternate interpretation.

[nigel5]

Jesus said "this generation" shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. Take with this his words to the high priest in Mark 14:62. Now add:
1 Corinthians 7: 29 -31. Paul says the time til the 2nd coming was so short that the Corinthians must drastically change the way they live.
1 Thessalonians 4: 16-18. Paul believed the 2nd coming would come in his lifetime, as evidenced by the fact that he includes himself among those still living at the time of the 2nd coming ("we" which are alive).
1 Thessalonians 5: 23. Paul's prayer is that the Thessalonians will be good until Jesus' 2nd coming, indicating he expected it in their lifetime.
1 Peter 4: 7. Peter believed the end of all things was at hand in his day.
1 John 2: 18. John thought he was living in the last times.
Revelation 3: 11; 22: 7, 12, 20. John believed Jesus was coming quickly.
When Jesus said "this" generation he meant the people then living. The idea that it referred to a future generation is a 20th century invention to explain why he didn't come in the first century, & as an excuse for why christians should continue to look for the 2nd coming.

I thought we were talking about matthew 24? Has the translation of the book changed over the 20th century? If you say the bible talks about the apostles saying He would come then... and I tell you Jesus himself said no one would know the time or the hour not even him. What you're trying to tell me is the apostles knew the exact time Jesus would come back! Go study some more!

[nigel5]

Notice whenever Jesus talked about the end time he mentioned specifc signs had to be seen first before he got to the generation part. In revelation John did say he believed God would come during his time... But did he say for sure that he would? NO! Even daniel himself thot the same.. But God told him to seal the word of the book for the event would happen long in the future!
My point is the only person who knew and knows for sure when he is coming back is God himself! And the biggest point of all, John the revelator knew all the words of the book had to be fulfilled first! Sadly, it never happened during there time!!

[nigel5]

ANd notice in all your quotes you have


"BELIEVED HE WOULD COME" LOL

[nigel5]

You are merely assuming that the desire of all nations is the coming of Jesus.

2 billiion christians! That's a 1/3 of the planet!

[nigel5]

"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still, he who is filthy, let him be filthy; He who is righteous, be righteous still, he who is holy, let him be holy still.
" Many shall be purified, made white and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly and none of the wicked shall Understand but the wise shall understand"
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is done away with and the abomination of desolution is set up, there shall be one thousand three hundred and thirty five days"
Dan 12:11