[poseidon]

SOME MIGHT FIND THIS COMMENT & QUESTION DISTURBING


This is a lengthy question.

I was always taught never to discuss the topics of politics, sex or religion and as such normally steer well clear of religious subjects, but I often comment on the other two, as those two are normally far less controversial.

May I say at the outset that this post is not intended to belittle in any way the rank and file members of the Roman Catholic Faith, nor those Priest, Bishops, Cardinals etc who have and do spend their entire lives devoted to the care and wellbeing of their parishioners both spiritually and otherwise. I have the utmost respect for you all.

Firstly may I say that I am a Christian, although not a Catholic. Nor do I subscribe to any other Church. This does not make me any the less a Christian. I also respect and accept all religions which do not advocate violence in their doctrine.

All religions have had and still do have their black times.

However I have just seen a documentary called 'Deliver Us From Evil'. May I ask those who have not yet seen it to try to see it as soon as they get the chance, especially those of the Catholic Faith as I would genuinely value your thoughts.

This tells the story of a Catholic priest in California who over a couple of decades systematically abused and raped 100s of young girls and boys, even at least one baby of only a few months in the various diocese he worked in.

The RC hierarchy were aware of this very early on in this beasts reign, including at the very highest level of the Vatican City.

What did they do? Everything in their power to discredit those who had suffered at the hands of this beast (am sorry but I cannot bring myself to use the word man), and their families and to protect and cover up what was going on and the Church's image.

The priest at the centre of this controversy is called Oliver (Ollie) O'Grady.

Not only did the Church stand by him, they flagrantly made empty promises to move him to a place where he would have no contact with children. In fact what they did was to move him just a few miles away from that diocese to another. When his filthy deeds were continued and discovered at his new diocese, he was moved again. This happened on at least four occasions and each time he was moved he still had access to young and innocent children and he still continued his abuse whenever the opportunity arose.

The Church and the Vatican knew this was happening from the information they were receiving from his superiors in CA and from police investigations but still continued to protect him in order to protect their own image.

Even when O'Grady was questioned by his superiors, he made no real secret of what he had been doing, and still was doing.

One of his Californian RC superiors even intimated that the RC Church would take a dim view if he had been abusing boys, but as it was girls he was abusing, it did not really count as they were females, even though he knew that O'Grady did not distinguish between boys and girls when he committed these acts.

Eventually in the late 90s he was taken to court and was sentenced to 14 years. Even then his Church promised to 'take care of him' provided he did not involve those RC Bishops who knew about it in CA. O'Grady did not even serve his 14 years, he was released and deported back to Ireland after 7.

O'Grady never appeared concerned or repentant either during the deposition stage or interviews and not once did he show remorse or even simply say 'I'm sorry'. He did write a letter to those who he had abused and ask them to come to Ireland and he would speak to them about it. Two weeks later he withdrew his offer.

Two of his victims even went to Vatican City in order to ensure the Pope got a letter from them on behalf of all the victims of O'Grady. However they were stopped from even entering the City by the guards. Even after the way they were treated by the abuser and the Catholic Church, these two along with their families are still devout Catholics.

The letter was eventually delivered to the Holy City but if the Pope was actually shown the letter is not known. Whatever happened or whoever saw the letter, it was never acknowledged or replied to.

It is believed that there are 1000s of RC priest in the US alone who break their vows of celibacy either by having sex with women, men, or who are paedophiles. Worldwide there may easily be 10s of thousands.

As far as I am aware nowhere in the scriptures does it say that a priest must not marry or indeed be celibate. Eleven of the 12 Disciples of Christ were married and some had children. It is only the RC Church that has made up these rules.

Even the first few Popes were married and had children.

My questions are:

1) Should a Church, whatever Church, have the right, or power to be able to manipulate, cover up, or condone the type of thing O'Grady did?

2) Is it time Churches and religions were held accountable for their actions and the actions of their employees, whether they be Priests, Bishops, Vicars, Muslim priests or Rabbis?

3) Should the RC Church be prosecuted for their actions in the O'Grady case and any other cases they have handled in a similar manner?

4) Is it time for the antiquated rule of an RC Priest having to remain single and celibate to be overturned?

5) Is it also time for the same rule for nuns to be overturned?

6) Should the Law of Confession between Priest and Confessor be repealed?

7) Do you consider that the acts of depravity many celibate priests commit would be less if they were permitted to marry and have children?

8) Do you think God, Christ or the Virgin Mary would or could ever condone what happened within the RC Church in the O'Grady case and many other cases which have come to light before, after and even now.

9) Is it a requirement or necessary for someone to be a Christian or accepted as a Christian only if they are affiliated with a Church or Religion?

10) Lord John Acton originated the phrase "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely". Could this phrase be associated with the RC Church and the Vatican?

Although virtually all religions have committed terrible acts in the past and some still are, I do believe that history shows us that those in absolute power in the Catholic religion have possibly committed more acts of murder, torture and depravity in its history than any other. All purported to be in the name of God.

Finally, it is estimated that the RC Church has paid out over one billion dollars in legal fees etc in their efforts to hide what is plainly going on in their Church and to protect their image since the 1950s.

There is obviously a great deal about O'Grady on the Internet but may I suggest a couple of sites to look at:

http://www.snapnetwork.org/priest_st..._pedophile.htm

BBC NEWS | Programmes | Panorama | Sex crimes and the Vatican: Transcript

Poseidon

[RickJ]

1-2-3: It's not that simple. YES, individuals who commit crimes, and those who cover it up, should be held accountable. And yes, the organizations that those people are members of should also be held accountable to a degree... but in any organization there are evil people who do evil things. That does not make the organization evil.

4. In my opinion, no. Priests should be available to those they serve 24-7. This does not leave room for being available and responsible for a family.

5. Maybe.

6. Not flatly repealed but possibly reconsidered in matters of serious crime.

7. Absolutely not. The connection between their celebacy and the crimes of some of them is a huge urban legend without merit.

8. Of course not.

9. Partially, yes. Anyone can claim they are Christian, but whether they are or not is dependent on what they believe and practice.

10. No. The RC Church does not have "absolute power".

... just my opinions ;)

[poseidon]

Thank you Rick for your reply,

Also for taking the time to read my post.

I am afraid I do not appear to be able to rate your reply but if I could I would agree your answer.

Q1,2 & 3 reply. I agree except that an organisation that professes to care for its people and mankind as a whole (irrespective of whether it is a religious organisation)and then tries to cover up for one or more of its members, especially such heinous crimes must shoulder its share of blame. As I said the crimes this particular priest was committing was known by the very head of this organisation and still nothing was done to protect the innocents who had already suffered and to prevent others from suffering similar fates.

Although I must agree that because one individual in an organisation is evil it does not mean the whole organisation is corrupt and evil, indeed in the RC Church the number of dedicated and caring members far outweigh the criminals. However those at its head must be equally responsible if they know that crimes are being committed by members of their organisation and do everything they can to cover up those crimes in order to safeguard their reputation.

In this case, had the Church held its hand up and shown they were not going to tolerate one of its members committing crimes against their Church, God and mankind as soon as they knew these crimes were happening, not only is it likely many, many other children could have been saved from this persons clutches, but I for one would have congratulated and respected them for their openness and the care and concern they were showing those who trust and worship their religion.

Q4 reply. Although I accept that a priest must make himself available to help his parishioners whenever the need arises, I feel it unfair and indeed impossible for him to be there 24/7, 365. In every walk of life people must have time for themselves, this applies to a priest as well as anyone else. I believe that of all the religions, the RC Faith is the only one which denies its priests the right to marry and have children and insists that they live a life of celibacy (although I may not be accurate in this). This is not something which is demanded or expected in the scriptures, it is simply that somewhere in the past someone or some group in the RC Faith decided that this would be the case. As I have said, the earlier priests and indeed Popes were allowed to marry and have children.

On top of this out of all the religions in the world, most, if not all, allow their serving vicars, priests, etc to have a family life by marrying and raising a family. Those seem to be able to look after their parishes and parishioners and have a happy married life.

Q5 reply. I was surprised as when you said quite an emphatic no to Q4 I assumed it would be the same for Q5. The strange thing is that I actually thought of leaving that Q out as a nun lives her life in a different way to an RC priest. It is still as important but they not only dedicate their live to helping others, they also 'marry' into the RC Church and Christ. In many cases they also live live their lives more privately than a priest and together in Convents. However, I do feel the question of whether Nuns or priest should be allowed to marry does need to be discussed and considered, especially in the times we live in today.

Q6. I agree that there may be instances when the Law of Confession should continue to be sacrosanct but equally confessions where the confessor is admitting to having committed crimes and any other serious deeds should be exempt from the Law of Confession, especially where there is a victim or victims involved.

Q7. Although I do agree that the connection between celibacy and crime is a myth, I feel I worded this questions wrongly. By depravity I was referring to the RC Church view of one of their celibate priests breaking his vow of celibacy and making love to a woman. This I believe is classed as an act of depravity in the RC Church. We all know basically that a paedophile is a paedophile and will likely always be a paedophile, whether he is a priest, a vicar or a train driver.

Your Q8. I have a feeling that anyone who answers this question will say the same. My point in asking it was that if such behaviour could not be condoned by God, Christ or Mary, then it simply cannot be condoned by the Church. Once the Church is aware of the facts and what has occurred.

Q9. I agree, I believe in the doctrine of the bible and what it stands for and do try to live my life for the benefit of others and as such I do not believe that being a subscriber to a religion is necessary in order to follow this doctrine.

Q10. I partially agree, however I do feel that the heads of the RC Church in Rome do hold absolute power over its lower echelons and their devout followers. I also feel that they hold a great deal of power in many other areas too. If not, one question I could not fathom the answer to in 'Deliver Us From Evil' was how come it took about 20 years for O'Grady to be brought to trial when the police and his Church knew and could prove what was going on very early on in his reign of paedophilia. Although it is only conjecture, I believe the Church was powerful enough to manage to suppress this and the other crimes he committed after they first came to light to the police. Had it been anyone else, they would have been arrested tried and punished very quickly, as soon as the evidence was there to prove it. A lot of this was down to influence the Church had in the various Diocese in California. This was shown in the documentary.

Thank you again for your reply and I am sorry my reply is so lengthy. Your thoughts and views are much appreciated and like yourself, these of course are only my own personal opinions

Poseidon

[RickJ]

1-2-3: Bear in mind that "the organization" is a touchy phrase. Indeed some may have covered up, but it is unfair to say that "The Roman Catholic Church" covered it up.

4: Not at all unfair. If one accepts the required duties and responsibilities of a "job" then neither he nor others can claim those duties and responsibilities to be unfair.

... on the others I cannot comment much further as I feel I could write a book on the subjects...

You have, though, given me some good stuff for addressing at my little place here. Thank you for presenting the issues, questions and responses in a reasonable matter. I'm well aware of the many anti-Catholics out there who preach hate and care nothing for true dialog.

[Fr_Chuck]

My questions are:

1) Should a Church, whatever Church, have the right, or power to be able to manipulate, cover up, or condone the type of thing O'Grady did?

* no, church or government or boy scout group or other group should hide a crime

2) Is it time Churches and religions were held accountable for their actions and the actions of their employees, whether they be Priests, Bishops, Vicars, Muslim priests or Rabbis?
** not any more than the boy scouts should be held accountable for their members who abuse children, or the karate schools where their teachers abuse others. But those that do hide a crime should as individuals should be held responsible for hiding a crime


3) Should the RC Church be prosecuted for their actions in the O'Grady case and any other cases they have handled in a similar manner?
** the individuals that do can be. But then most of the RC abuse claims are often older and most fall outside of statue of limitations for legal action

4) Is it time for the antiquated rule of an RC Priest having to remain single and celibate to be overturned?
** actually this is only within the Roman Rite, there are rites within the church that allow priests to marry, and in addition priests from churches such as Anglican and Lutheran at times go into the Catholic Church as married priests. In fact we have had several of our group go back into the church without any new ordinations as married priests and one go back as a Bishop. And again this is not doctine merely a rule within the church, it can be changed anytime.

But there is no connection between abuse and being celebrate, since most abuse happens often by family members and others who are married, in the over all number of abuse the ones by priests are very small, uncles or school teaches make up a much higher number, So we need to also consider what punishment should be done to principles of schools who have teachers who abuse their students.

5) Is it also time for the same rule for nuns to be overturned?

No, they need to stay unmarried , see no relastionship of this question to the thread,

6) Should the Law of Confession between Priest and Confessor be repealed? First this is not just for catholic priests but for any minister, even online interent ministers, and attorneys, and doctors and mental health professionals. So why not, eveyone should confess what they know, but most priests have a duty to report any ongoing crime.

7) Do you consider that the acts of depravity many celibate priests commit would be less if they were permitted to marry and have children?
First there are very very few acts of depravity by percentage, and no it has almost nothing to do with being married or not being married, since as noted most over all abuse is done by married people, and normally family members. The fact is that when a baptist pastor in Atlanta abuses a child, it does not make national news, but if a catholic priest does, it makes national news. When the boy scout leader in atlanta abuses a child, it does not make national news.

8) Do you think God, Christ or the Virgin Mary would or could ever condone what happened within the RC Church in the O'Grady case and many other cases which have come to light before, after and even now.
** no , there is no excuse for abuse

9) Is it a requirement or necessary for someone to be a Christian or accepted as a Christian only if they are affiliated with a Church or Religion?
** not really sure what you are asking, but to be a church member I would assume you would want to be a Christian. But then as in the survey of the Anglican Church in England where 10 percent of their members did not believe in God, so I guess it is not a real have to.

10) Lord John Acton originated the phrase "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely". Could this phrase be associated with the RC Church and the Vatican?
No, not currently, the more correct phase would be we all all human and as such are sinners.

[poseidon]

For RickJ,

Like you I feel I could write a book. Of course I have to admit that I am at a disadvantage, not being in the Catholic Church as I do not know all about their doctrine, rules and regs.

The only other comment on my post I would like to make is that I do feel in this instance the cover up was by 'The RC Church'. I say this because the Pope is probably the strongest Church leader in the world, he is said to 'Wear the Shoes of the Fisherman' and is virtually God's right hand man on Earth. He is also the undisputed head of the RC Church and as such he holds absolute power over all in his Church.

As he was made aware of the what O'Grady was doing and chose to do nothing I feel he as the head of the Church must bear the responsibility for allowing this 'priest' to continue in his office, thereby allowing him access to all the other children O'Grady molested.

The evidence does show that the Pope was aware of what was going on very early on in the case.

Had it been a vicar in the Church of England or any religion and had they acted in a similar fashion I would still have posted my questions,

I have seen how some people try to rip apart other religions including the RC and they have no right to.

It is fine to agree or disagree about different religions but that disagreement can be shown diplomatically, objectively and sensibly.

If/when I see any replies to my question which are not in the spirit of the AMHD or abusive toward me or my question, or any religion I shall attempt to answer them with dignity and diplomacy, as I always do.

I have visited the link you gave me. Thank you for that. I am assuming you are of the RC Faith. If you are I really value your contribution and thoughts. I will take a closer look at 'your little place' when I have a little more time.

Regards

Poseidon

[RickJ]

As [the Pope] was made aware of the what O'Grady was doing and chose to do nothing...

What verification do you have that this is true?

Remember that the makers of "Deliver Us From Evil" 1) are no friends of the Catholic Church, and 2) did the show for profit.

... I already know the answer to the question I asked :)

No Pope in recent history would "choose to do nothing" with good evidence that a Priest was molesting children.

It is simply an anti-Catholic claim with no merit or evidence whatsoever.

[Donna Mae]

This is why you put your faith in God, not in men.

[Donna Mae]

1. NEVER
2. Everyone should be held accountable for these kinds of actions, no matter who they
Are.
3. Even those covering up crimes, should be held accountable.
4. It doesn't say in the Bible to not marry.
5. There are no 'rules' in the Bible for anyone not marrying.
6. Confession is good for the soul, not to cover up a crime.
7. We'll probably never know.
8. God and Christ would never condone any of this, but they will condemn the ones
Doing it!
9. A Christian has fellowship with other Christians for worship, for coming together to
Praise the Lord and for communion. I believe this can be anywhere there are other
Christians.
10. Any organization that thinks they have more power than Jesus, is doomed.