[NowWhat]

You guys are making me tired.

[student 101]

Well we could allow prayer as long as they are diverse. Meaning we have a muslim praying in class instead of going to a private place to pray. As long as we can respect each other pray . Prayers should be allow but if we are going to make difference in praying practices and allow ones an other not. Then we should not allow it because descrimination is uncostitutional

[De Maria]

I didn't say you and I didn't name anyone on this forum.

Thanks for the clarification.

[De Maria]

Serial killers have little compassion but also have a lot of passion for what they do, so I guess that's good!

What serials killer have is a lack of conscience. Which is what you are displaying here.

Now, please provide a quote or some evidence of my so-called "lack of compassion".

[NeedKarma]

What serials killer have is a lack of conscience. Which is what you are displaying here.

Now, please provide a quote or some evidence of my so-called "lack of compassion".

Lack of conscience? How so?

As for the lack of compassion I was referring to your attempts to denigrate a group of people who are not like yourself. NowWhat agrees as well and she's on your side. :)

[NowWhat]

Hey! Leave me out of this! :)

[De Maria]

Lack of conscience? How so?

You are maliciously using a type of fallacious argumentation called "poisoning the well". By associating me with a serial killer, you hope to make me so repulsive that others will avoid reading my comments:

Here is a better explanation:

The phrase was first used in its relevant sense by Cardinal John Henry Newman during a controversy with Charles Kingsley:

…[W]hat I insist upon here…is this unmanly attempt of his, in his concluding pages, to cut the ground from under my feet;—to poison by anticipation the public mind against me, John Henry Newman, and to infuse into the imaginations of my readers, suspicion and mistrust of every thing that I may say in reply to him. This I call poisoning the wells.

"I am henceforth in doubt and fear," he says, "as much as any honest man can be, concerning every word Dr. Newman may write. How can I tell that I shall not be the dupe of some cunning equivocation?" …

Well, I can only say, that, if his taunt is to take effect, I am but wasting my time in saying a word in answer to his foul calumnies… We all know how our imagination runs away with us, how suddenly and at what a pace;—the saying, "Caesar's wife should not be suspected," is an instance of what I mean. The habitual prejudice, the humour of the moment, is the turning-point which leads us to read a defence in a good sense or a bad. We interpret it by our antecedent impressions. The very same sentiments, according as our jealousy is or is not awake, or our aversion stimulated, are tokens of truth or of dissimulation and pretence. There is a story of a sane person being by mistake shut up in the wards of a Lunatic Asylum, and that, when he pleaded his cause to some strangers visiting the establishment, the only remark he elicited in answer was, "How naturally he talks! you would think he was in his senses." Controversies should be decided by the reason; is it legitimate warfare to appeal to the misgivings of the public mind and to its dislikings? Any how, if Mr. Kingsley is able thus to practise upon my readers, the more I succeed, the less will be my success. … The more triumphant are my statements, the more certain will be my defeat.

Source: John Henry Newman, Apologia Pro Vita Sua

Type: Argumentum ad Hominem
Logical Fallacy: Poisoning the Well

As for the lack of compassion I was referring to your attempts to denigrate a group of people who are not like yourself.

You continue to corrupt and misrepresent my words. Provide the evidence. Where did I denigrate a group of people?

NowWhat agrees as well and she's on your side. :)

NowWhat never made any such comments. And she wants you to leave her out of this. So it comes back to you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[TzAngels]

I attended both public and private schools (although it was a longtime ago. When I was in Kindegarten we said the pledge of allegience before school started and did not leave out the word God. I do not remember ever praying in public school but I don't see what the big deal about it is. I believe that everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe and they also have the right to express it the way they want to. Freedom of speech is guaranteed by the Constitution. What I find sad is that so many people want to argue over what offends them. Why do we have to walk on eggshells so often and worry about whether or not we are offending someone by what we believe? It takes all kinds to make the world go round.

[miykle]

G'Day... again
Well I do believe children should pray in schools, we teach our kids they are descended from monkeys and they prey in schools.
The house built on the rock stands firm the shack built on the sand falls.
Pray for our Kids!!
Blessings <M>

[lobrobster]

Christian prayer is ok..in a christian school.

I agree

[Synnen]

G'Day.....again
Well I do believe children should pray in schools, we teach our kids they are descended from monkeys and they prey in schools.
The house built on the rock stands firm the shack built on the sand falls.
Pray for our Kids!!!!
Blessings <M>

As far as MY Goddess is concerned---well, she doesn't really have a creation story. Descended from monkeys is okay with me.

However--if you think you're going to make MY kids pray a Christian prayer, or even have to LISTEN to one every day in a secular school, you've got another think coming.

EVERY religion is valid in this country. If we have prayer in schools, you'll have to make sure that every day you pray to a new god--and with so many pantheons have multiple gods, well--the Christian god is only going to get his chance once every few months.

Let's put it this way--would you want YOUR kids to pray to Satan? Or to even have to listen to a prayer to Satan?

[De Maria]

As far as MY Goddess is concerned---well, she doesn't really have a creation story. Descended from monkeys is okay with me.

However--if you think you're going to make MY kids pray a Christian prayer, or even have to LISTEN to one every day in a secular school, you've got another think coming.

EVERY religion is valid in this country. If we have prayer in schools, you'll have to make sure that every day you pray to a new god--and with so many pantheons have multiple gods, well--the Christian god is only gonna get his chance once every few months.

Let's put it this way--would you want YOUR kids to pray to Satan? Or to even have to listen to a prayer to Satan?

Let me get this straight. If the majority of the Christian parents want Christian prayer in the public school and the minority want to pray to satan, you believe the majority should put their children in private school or take them home in order to do so?

It just seems undemocratic to me.

What's wrong with the minority putting their children in private school if they don't want to hear Christian prayer in public school?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Synnen]

I will stress again--Separation of church and state is NOT subject to a majority vote. It's in our Constitution - part of the First Amendment. It means basically that the state will NOT endorse any religion, and the church will not support any particular politics. The state can't tell a church how to believe, the church can't tell the state how to legislate. Absolute separation.

Because schools are a part of the state (run by state agencies, paid with state money, and endorsed by state laws), there can be NO "official" religion at any school. It doesn't matter if the school is 100% a particular religion--the school still can not endorse that religion. They can't prevent people from expressing their religious beliefs (which is why kids can still pray), but they can not choose one religion over any other (which is why teachers and administrators can not lead those prayers the kids are saying).

I don't care if the kids pray, or read the Bible, or the Book of Mormon, or the Taliban's Code of Conduct, or the Talmud, or any OTHER religious tract. I don't care if they support their religion by wearing religious symbols.

What I care about is that the state should NOT choose any one religion over another, and that's EXACTLY what they'd be doing if they had prayer in school.

[excon]

It just seems undemocratic to me.

What's wrong with the minority putting their children in private school if they don't want to hear Christian prayer in public school?

Hello again, De Maria:

Well, we're back to the argument I posted a waaaaay's back. Clearly, you didn't understand what I said. Let me try again.

The only thing in the way with putting minority children in private school is the Constitution.

You think the majority should win. You keep saying that. The majority cannot VOTE away the rights from the minority. That's not how our system works. I don't know what's so hard about that. I know you think it does. You're wrong. Maybe if you took a civics class instead of your religious stuff, you'd know more about how your own country works.

excon

[lobrobster]

The majority cannot VOTE away the rights from the minority. That's not how our system works.

Thank God for that! ;)

[connie-mom]

I would have to say yes to prayers I am not in any faith nor are my kids but a little silence during the morning would help kids settle down and get to work I don't think a little quiet time would hurt we all have something to be greate full for a little time to express that would be nice and if a child decides to pray well let them but not out loud. If a child wants to thank our soldieurs or the teachers or anything well here is the time.

... so many things come down to parents saying "oh I am not this or that so my kids are not coming to this school unless it changes what happened to the Oh canada song and god save the queen song in the morning what happened to putting your head down once during the day to sit for a moment to say thanks to anyone or anything, what happened to merry christmas?

We have so much to be thankful for whether it be for our freedom our homes our families some one had to get that for us why not set aside a time to say thanks... and oh my merry christmas is now seasons greeting!! I mean what is with that does it really make a difference what people say? It all means the same thing in the end

... in the end we all have something to pray for some time given in school would be nice.. if the child don't want to pray well its gives that child time to relax and get ready to work.

[De Maria]

I will stress again--Separation of church and state is NOT subject to a majority vote.

1. The Constitution can be amended by 2/3 majority.
2. Separation of Church and State means that the government can't establish a State religion.

It's in our Constitution - part of the First Amendment.

The Constitution also provides for freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

It means basically that the state will NOT endorse any religion,

Correct.

and the church will not support any particular politics.

False. That's only if the particular church wants to be tax exempt. If a Church is willing to lose this status, they may participate in any politics they want.

The state can't tell a church how to believe,

Correct.

the church can't tell the state how to legislate.

The church can tell the state anything it wants. The state is under no obligation to obey.

Absolute separation.

False, every religious person regardless of creed must behave according to his religious conscience. Being an American does not mean we check our faith at the door or our school nor our government office.

Because schools are a part of the state (run by state agencies, paid with state money, and endorsed by state laws), there can be NO "official" religion at any school.

We aren't asking for an official religion. We're asking for prayer.

It doesn't matter if the school is 100% a particular religion--the school still can not endorse that religion.

Permitting prayer is not endorsement of a religion. It is endorsement of individual conscience.

They can't prevent people from expressing their religious beliefs (which is why kids can still pray),

And so they should.

but they can not choose one religion over any other (which is why teachers and administrators can not lead those prayers the kids are saying).

That is the ruling we hope to overturn. I personally believe, if the parents agree, the School should serve the parents will. It is the parents who are ultimately in charge of their children.

I don't care if the kids pray, or read the Bible, or the Book of Mormon, or the Taliban's Code of Conduct, or the Talmud, or any OTHER religious tract. I don't care if they support their religion by wearing religious symbols.

What I care about is that the state should NOT choose any one religion over another, and that's EXACTLY what they'd be doing if they had prayer in school.

I disagree. If they do what the parents agree upon, they will simply be permitting prayer. Not establishing a religion.

But did you answer my question?

You seem to think it fine that a Christian should leave Public School if he wants to pray. What's wrong with a nonChristian leaving Public School if he doesn't want to hear prayer?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Hello again, De Maria:

Well, we're back to the argument I posted a waaaaay's back. Clearly, you didn’t understand what I said. Let me try again.

Clearly you forgot what you said:
I misspoke earlier when I said you don't have a clue. You DO. I like your argument. In fact, I agree with you for the most part.

That was message #66 on page 7.

Bye

[lobrobster]

1. The Constitution also provides for freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

Uh, just as importantly it provides freedom from religion!

We aren't asking for an official religion. We're asking for prayer.

Prayer has religious connotations. Again, the constitution just as importantly provides for freedom from religion.

That is the ruling we hope to overturn.

It will never happen. I have too much faith in the strength of our constitution. If it's so important to you that your kids pray, then make the time for them to do so at home each day. But why should other kids lose valuable school time, because you're too lazy or disorganized to provide this daily prayer time in your own home where it belongs?

Again, I have faith in our constitution. You will lose this one. I'd bet money on it.

[Synnen]

De Maria--

The answer to your question is another question:

If a minority feels left out and put upon because of the actions of the majority in a school--should the minority have to leave a public place because of the actions of the majority? Or should the majority have to make concessions to NOT make the minority feel out of place? Aren't actions that make someone feel pushed into something they don't believe BAD? In other words--should a child have to feel like they have to pretend to be Christian to fit it, to NOT feel bullied or judged? Should they have to act like they believe the same thing as everyone else?

Seriously--it's Christians that think that everyone and everything should conform to them because they are the majority religion in this country that just ticks me right off. I honestly believe that that whole "only one god" thing you have makes you have quite the lack of tolerance for other religions. After all--when's the last time a minority religion walked up to you on the street and asked, "have you found the Flying Speghetti Monster? Only He can save you! Convert! Be saved now!"?

So... I guess what I'm saying is that my belief is that neither you nor the state can tell me what to believe, and because PARENTS are ultimately in charge of their children, not TEACHERS--then PARENTS should tell their kids what to believe.

Teachers have far too much influence on kids, especially small kids. I don't want another adult to influence my child to another religion. Why can't we just have teachers teach kindness and respect and TOLERANCE, not a specific religion? Aside from the things they SHOULD be teaching, of course--reading, writing, math, science, history, geography, etc.

I shouldn't have to pull my kids from a school that prayed--but you're right that I would. And then I'd sue the school district for teaching religion in a state institution--because like it or not, a prayer to a specific god in a school is endorsing ONLY that religion. The state can not endorse a religion.

One can act according to their religious beliefs without forcing them on to others.

As far as your 2/3 majority--the rest of the world could pretty much vote Christians down

Major Religions Ranked by Size

Though in the US, they'd certainly beat out any other religion by a large majority

Largest Religious Groups in the USA

So... see if you can get your laws passed. I'll keep fighting to make sure they don't.