[KAOSKTRL]

Have you ever read the Quran?

[G4-450]

Sure I have

I have read the Bible (torah, gospel, revelations) over 11 times, in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew. and the Koran over 4 times now (referenced of-course)

But I am only using arabic as reference to the Yasuf Ali version when reading the Koran, which I have read about 3 times now out if the total 4 times ide say by looking at others which I found to be poor translations and missleading from the classical arabic..

The Koran is exactly what it says it is, a book cleansing all prior revelations in the bible of mortal man made inventions and confirming the things with stand by unity of mankind under one God, which is the same universal message all prophets made.

The whole point of prophethood was to guide people back to the very founder of the 3 monotheists religions, and that is ABRAHAM and the submission to the one true God,and not desires and lusts which take mens souls into perdition.

Faith is the guidance which are the ten commandments, if you practice these you will have paradise, try it..


The fact that even modern science is primitive compared to biblical and koranic evidence is amazing.

Like it is said in the Koran that certain people will get a taste of heaven and hell here on earth for there deeds. and there is a barrier between the evil people and the good people from a chemical there brains release, love releases a chemical which is positive while hatred and anger releases a deadly chemical which kills many of the person's abilities to grow.

Further more, in the Koran these barrier was demonstrated in nature with the 2 Oceans (Pacisif and Atalantic) separated in half down the middle! Sweet salt and sour salt water. like a invisible wall, and there was never anyone o prove this until 1994, and the koran was here 1400 years ago,

[KAOSKTRL]

Ok lets she where you are going with this you claim there are three great ambrahamic religions?What are they &
Which came first second and third?

[KAOSKTRL]

As for a "barrier between fresh and salt water" there is no such barrier at all and the Quran is wrong. The sweet waters enter the sea and eventually mix with the sea water. Anyone standing on a hill can see that when the water enters the sea (especially when it is muddy) it pushes the sea water aside and because of its momentum goes forward. In the mouth of the delta the waters seem to be separate but soon they merge. The Quran mentions that there is a barrier and the Quran is wrong. So the question of probability and chance is irrelevant because the Quran is wrong.

[G4-450]

“He has let free the two bodies Of flowing water, Meeting together: Between them is a Barrier Which they do not transgress.” [Al-Qur’aan 55:19-20]

In the Arabic text the word barzakh means a barrier or a partition. This barrier is not a physical partition. The Arabic word maraja literally means ‘they both meet and mix with each other’. Early commentators of the Qur’aan were unable to explain the two opposite meanings for the two bodies of water, i.e. they meet and mix, and at the same time, there is a barrier between them. Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity and density. 7 Oceanologists are now in a better position to explain this verse. There is a slanted unseen water barrier between the two seas through which water from one sea passes to the other. But when the water from one sea enters the other sea, it loses its distinctive characteristic and becomes homogenized with the other water. In a way this barrier serves as a transitional homogenizing area for the two waters. This scientific phenomenon mentioned in the Qur’aan was also confirmed by Dr. William Hay who is a well-known marine scientist and Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, U.S.A. The Qur’aan mentions this phenomenon also in the following verse:

“And made a separating bar between the two bodies Of flowing water?” [Al-Qur’aan 27:61]

This phenomenon occurs in several places, including the divider between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean at Gibralter. But when the Qur’aan speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the:

7 Principles of Oceanography, Davis, pp. 92-93.

Existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier.

“It is He Who has Let free the two bodies Of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, And the other salty and bitter; Yet has He Made a barrier between them, And a partition that is forbidden To be passed.”
[Al-Qur’aan 25:53]

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and saltwater meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.” 8 This partition (zone of separation) has salinity different from both the fresh water and the salt water.

9 This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Mediterranean Sea.

Prof. Durga Rao is an expert in the field of Marine Geology and was a professor at King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah. He was asked to comment on the following verse:

“Or (the Unbelievers’ state) Is like the depths of darkness In a vast deep ocean, Overwhelmed with billow Topped by billow, Topped by (dark) clouds: Depths of darkness, one Above another: if a man Stretches out his hand, He can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah Giveth not light, there is no light!” [Al-Qur’aan 24:40]

Prof. Rao said that scientists have only now been able to confirm, with the help of modern equipment that there is darkness in the depths of the ocean. Humans are unable to dive unaided underwater for more than 20 to 30 meters, and cannot survive in the deep oceanic regions at a depth of more than 200 meters. This verse does not refer to all seas because not every sea can be described as having accumulated darkness layered one over another. It refers especially to a deep sea or deep ocean, as the Qur’aan says, “darkness in a vast deep ocean”. This layered darkness in a deep ocean is the result of two causes:

1 A light ray is composed of seven colours. These seven colours are Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange and Red (VIBGYOR). The light ray undergoes refraction when it hits water. The upper 10 to 15 metres of water absorb the red colour. Therefore if a diver is 25 metres under water and gets wounded, he would not be able to see the red colour of his blood, because the red colour does not reach this depth. Similarly orange rays are absorbed at 30 to 50 metres, yellow at 50 to 100 metres, green at 100 to 200 metres, and finally, blue beyond 200 metres and violet and indigo above 200 metres. Due to successive disappearance of colour, one layer after another, the ocean progressively becomes darker, i.e. darkness takes place in layers of light. Below a depth of 1000 meters there is complete darkness. 10

2The sun’s rays are absorbed by clouds, which in turn scatter light rays thus causing a layer of darkness under the clouds. This is the first layer of darkness. When light rays reach the surface of the ocean they are reflected by the wave surface giving it a shiny appearance. Therefore it is the waves which reflect light and cause darkness. The unreflected light penetrates into the depths of the ocean. Therefore the ocean has two parts. The surface characterized by light and warmth and the depth characterized by darkness. The surface is further separated from the deep part of the ocean by waves. The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. The darkness begins below the internal waves. Even the fish in the depths of the ocean cannot see; their only source of light is from their own bodies. The Qur’aan rightly mentions:

“Darkness in a vast deep ocean overwhelmed with waves topped by waves”.

In other words, above these waves there are more types of waves, i.e. those found on the surface of the ocean. The Qur’aanic verse continues, “topped by (dark) clouds; depths of darkness, one above another.” These clouds as explained are barriers one over the other that further cause darkness by absorption of colours at different levels. Prof. Durga Rao concluded by saying, “1400 years ago a normal human being could not explain this phenomenon in so much detail. Thus the information must have come from a supernatural source”.

8 Oceanography, Gross, p. 242. Also see Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp. 300-301.

9 Oceanography, Gross, p. 244 and Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp.300-301

10 Oceans, Elder and Pernetta, p. 27.

[G4-450]

Ok lets she where you are going with this you claim their are three great ambrahamic religions?What are they &
Which came first second and third?

Abraham founded the first monotheists religion, he set up a house for prayer called the kabah in Arabia, he was not a jew or christian or even spoke hebrew, and he existed before Moses but yet the was biological grandfather of Jacob who changed his name to Israel, and where you got the children of Israel from.

The children of Israel where divided into 12 tribes, but Judah became a sect and Jesus was to reform them for he calledthe, the lost sheep of Israel, Jesus had 12 disciples to be asigned as there new leaders, judas presented Judah and exactly what Judah did to the rest of there brother tribes.

Jesus did not have any followers after he lived who believed he was crucified or a trinity, most of his followers where monothiests and murdered by pagan polythiests Romans who refuted the idea of one true God or that otehrs where nearly created by there Gods,
Saul, a jewish man, was one of the persecutors of the earliest Christians, been called Christian was a insult then as well,

Saul changed his name to Paul, and repented.
Later he delivered the gospels in western greek rather then aramaic with un known authors and some which contained similar names to the apostles of Jesus but never even met him., remember now, these where Jesus´s very own enemies who plotted to kill him all along.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aotb.htm

Jesus promises another prophet after him who will comleate the revelations, this was Mohammed obviously since no other religion came about with in that time with such books and scientific facts today like the earth was round.

These 3 Faiths are based on the faith of Abraham in one God., they all broke into sects, and they all had prophets for this exact reason; to guide them back to the one God of Abraham.

While all these religions broke into sects (including Islam today) the basic fundamentally of Abraham faith is to believe in one true God, do his will (the commandments) and sincerely be devoted to truth with in and outward in your life in order to obtain peace and salvation in this life and the hear after.

This is what the Bible is about, it contains guidance from God, and people chosen by God (not people) which could be anyone from anywhere to deliver the message., which was completed by mohammed when he restored the HOUSE OF WORSHIP called the KABAH.

So if the jews knew better why did they not do it themselves rather then complain about islam and start blame games, obviously they where not jewish right?

Now if all this was a fairy tale or a movie, you would find it all easier to understand and also interesting about the little planet earth and all the life in it.

But the fact is, no one understands it unless they identify which role they play in it, because it mirrors the very soul of living beings!

LOL

Think about it.
You either take everything in this world for granted as yours to destroy or your accept that its all God's , including yourself and others and learn to live in it with peace of mind rather then been obsessed with how much of it your have before you died. there is a hear after according to all Books.

[KAOSKTRL]

Abraham founded the first monotheists religion, he set up a house for prayer called the kabah in Arabia

So where do these "facts" come from?
Lets try to keep these post brief OK .
Teach don't preach, prove don't dissimulate.

[G4-450]

So where do these "facts" come from?
Lets try to keep these post brief OK .
teach dont preach, prove dont dissimulate.

LOL, Your the one preaching to the world that Islam will come to kill you and how xenophobia got the best of you, yet your the ONLY one here terrified and probably never even met any muslims.

So look at the hole your digging yourself into, why in the world would you run al your life from people you do not understand who are human beings just like you and feel the same pain you do? "Struggle" aka Jihad, is in the bible and just because you cowered out to evil people and joined them does not mean others should die because your obsessed with this now.

You need patience to understand all this, chasing after other things will only bring you to a dead stop.

FOR THE 4th TIME, from the Bible and Koran;
God had asked Abram to change his name to Abraham when he was ninety-nine years old. (see Genesis 17:1-5). Abraham means "father of a multitude/many".

1-Abraham proved that love (worship) is human nature, and man is to only worship God who gives them and all living creatures life and sustenance.

2-Abraham rejected that worshiping the sun, the moon, racial ideology, objects, power or wealth as Gods can make a man a better person, and further more proved that they where been hypocrites about it when they where willing to kill him (Abraham ) to protect these things they claimed where Gods.

3-So after his own trials with polytheists aka Kafirs as you have been putting it, Abraham concluded that he had only God to turn to for salvation since people like his own father where willing to kill him in order to protect there false Gods. (like today, oil=$)

4-finally Abraham turns to God for salvation by offering his greatest love in the world as a sacrifice to show his loyalty, and this was his own first child Ishmael., Ishmael the eldest son was at that time thirteen years old. Isaac was born one year after the name change. (Gen. 17:15-21, 16:16 and 21:5)

5- The Book of Genesis Chapter 17: God said; "I will establish My Covenant with him as an everlasting Covenant for his offspring after him." (verse 19).

ISRAEL: Jacob aka Israel was the grandson of Abraham, and the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. (one knows today as Judah aka Jewish).

JUDAISM:This does not claim that Abraham was Jewish but that all 12 tribes made a there covenant with the one true God of Abraham, who Moses told them about.

CHRISTIANITY:[9] And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
[2] And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

So according to biblical and Koranic history, this covenant is about faith not blood lines, wealth or land handed down through inheritance.


The polytheists where people who always committed the crimes of Genocide in the bible and during the age of Mohammed and the Koran,

Polytheists killed for the materialistic things (money, oil, etc etc.) that they believed improve there cowardly lives and considered there gods or as you can put it, things they worshiped which they depended on for everything; while the believers simply stood up against them in there defense for there right to live.

So for the record; Abraham lived BEFORE Moses was alive and the Torah (old testament) existed.

[KAOSKTRL]

Ok, so you are trying to prove Islam by using the torah and Ishmael.
Islam has no connection to Ishmael,
You need to prove some connection other than
Wishful thinking .
Redefining what offspring means is a nice trick and shows you know Mohammed has no connection to Ishmael.
But I’m thinking you had better consult God before you start messing around with the text,

In any case we have arrived at the point where you are making claims and have yet to produce any Islamic scripture or any scripture that supports your claim that Islam has anything to do with Abraham other than the word of a pedophilic rapist and a murderous liar,
That’s not a good enough reference,

Produce the scripture that proves Abraham ever went to Mecca and built the first Kabba,As you have cliamed in your earlier post. This scripture must not contradict any, other scripture as the Quran claims those scriptures are accurate and uncorrupted.

[G4-450]

Ok, so you are trying to prove Islam by using the torah and Ishmael. Islam has no connection to Ishmael, You need to prove some connection other than wishful thinking .

LOL

speaking for yourself there; If Ishmael was Abraham's first born child, why does the Torah (old testament) say that is was Isaac who was to be the sacrificed son when he was born 1 year after? sounds like someone had more then wishful thinking in mind there when they changed this in the Bible, and why do such a thing when Both Ishmael and Isaac where the children of Abraham?

So, why not read it yourself for once.

Redefining what offspring means is a nice trick and shows you know Mohammed has no connection to Ishmael.

If you had any truth to say you would not be playing tricks would you?. this only exposes that you intended to do the same thing bigot Rabbis did with Judaism who Jesus confronted about playing God and mixing racial favoritism with claims that they where not God's Chosen to be examples of people who kept there oaths, but that they chosen because ethey simply where wrote a book called the talmud and it was Holier then God.

So what you just said is a perfect a example of what ends typical polytheists and hypocrites will go to when giving into evil and playing tricks in order to win a argument even if they deprive themselves from the truth.

God created every living thing, and God can choose who he wills and God is above all the things men say.

But I’m thinking you had better consult God before you start messing around with the text,

LOL, my posts are just conclusion I came to, I used to think allot like you but with out the racist ideas you have.

I gave you clear references, so from here on it is up to you to make the effort and face the truth. and between you and God if your wiling to change your ways from decieving yourself by letting your hate get between it all.

Jesus said, No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


God choose another nation according to Jesus, surely Jesus did not ask people to worship him; Matt.21 [43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

John 8:28
“I do nothing of myself.”

Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as yourselves know.”
*
This is the God Jesus spoke about.

In any case we have arrived at the point where you are making claims and have yet to produce any Islamic scripture or any scripture that supports your claim that Islam has anything to do with Abraham other than the word of a pedophilic rapist and a murderous liar,
That’s not a good enough reference,

You have all

No, it is you that has been making claims, Mohammed only stood for the very same values Abraham, Moses and Jesus did, and the Jihad is a law in the Bible, I never thought so myself until I read it, so beware of those who lie about it.

Produce the scripture that proves Abraham ever went to Mecca and built the first Kabba,As you have cliamed in your earlier post. This scripture must not contradict any, other scripture as the Quran claims those scriptures are accurate and uncorrupted.

Do you know what "the Dome of the Rock" in Jerusalem really is?

And did you ever read; Psalms 84:4-6
Blessed are they that dwell in thy house (Kabah); they will be still praising thee, Selah. Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them; who passing the valley of Baca (Mecca) make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.


And all Abrahamic faiths prayed like this;
Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,"
Genesis 17:17 "Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? And shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"
Exodus 34:8 "And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped."
Numbers 20:6 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.
Numbers 16:20-22 "And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"
Nehemiah 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with [their] faces to the ground.
Joshua 5:14 "And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?"
Ezekiel 9:8 "And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?"
2 Chronicles 20:18 "And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD."
Ezekiel 11:13 "And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?"
Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."
Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

[KAOSKTRL]

I didn't think so.
The Quran abrogates the Torah and gospel they have nothing to do with Islam .
Islam sublimates all other religions religions
Same values ?

"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)



John 8:7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

You don't even know the history of Islam,
the kaba was built by adam or allah or both.

Tabari I:293 “Allah founded the House together with Adam. Adam’s head was in heaven while his feet were upon the earth. The angels were afraid so his size was reduced to sixty cubits (30 meters). Adam was sad because he missed the angelic songs. He complained, and Allah said, ‘Adam, I have cast down a house for you to circumambulate, as one circumambulates My Throne.’ Adam came to the House, and he and the prophets after him circumambulated it.”

Tabari I:293 “When Allah cast Adam down from Paradise, Adam’s feet were on earth while his head was in heaven.
He became too familiar with the angels and they were in awe of him so much so that they complained to Allah in their various prayers.
Allah, therefore, lowered Adam. But Adam missed what he used to hear from the angels and felt lonely. He complained to Allah and was sent to Mecca.

On the way every place where he set foot became a village, and the interval between his steps became a desert until he reached Mecca. Allah sent down a jewel of Paradise where the House [Ka’aba] is located today. Adam continued to circumambulate it until Allah sent down the Flood.””

And then it was built again by

Tabari I:335 “Seth stayed in Mecca performing the hajj pilgrimage and the lesser umrah until he died. He added the scrolls revealed by Allah to those of his father, Adam, and acted in accordance with their contents. He built the Ka’aba with stones and clay.”


and then it was built again by "abraham"
Tabari I:293 “That jewel was lifted up until Allah sent Abraham to (re)build the House. This is meant by Allah’s word, ‘And We established for Abraham the place of the House as residence.’” [Qur’an 22:26]

If you believe this gibberish that makes up the foundation of Islam you deserve to got to hell.

Why did did cain Slay able?

[Morganite]

Thank you for raising the level of this debate above the gutter into which G4-450 had dragged it.





MORGANITE

[G4-450]

I didnt think so.
The Quran abrogates the Torah and gospel they have nothing to do with Islam . Islam sublimates all other religions religions
Same values ?

there is no religion in the Bible, non at all.

Joseph Campbell once said, There is no religion in the Bible, and all the jews organizations attacked him for this.

He continued to ask; Do you understand the view of exclusive religion? - "You worship God in your way, I'll worship God in his."

This would mean that they did not practice God's commandments.

So according to this historian Joseph Campbell, There is no religion in the Bible, the only religion which agrees with what the bible says is the religion of God, Peace (Islam)., this was to say that sticking to the rules of respecting each other like one family and feeding the needy is God's religion, So why did some break there peace? greed?

"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: '::::: The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)

There is no such hadeeeth again, proof please (Hadith No.? Muslim 682)

John 8:7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Islam teaches exactly this, Adam fell from the garden but no one was born with sin that has not sinned in this life, so no one has the right to attack another person, and anyone who does lost his faith.

A again Islam is not acounted for anything non believers do.

You dont even know the history of Islam,
the kaba was built by adam or allah or both.

Tabari I:293 ::::::::::::::::and then it was built again by "abraham"
Tabari I:293 “That jewel was lifted up until Allah sent Abraham to (re)build the House. This is meant by Allah’s word, ‘And We established for Abraham the place of the House as residence.’” [Qur’an 22:26]

:p :p Tabarani is not the Qur'an, again you did not croos reference to seek the truth in in it all.

If you believe this gibberish that makes up the foundation of Islam you deserve to got to hell.

LOL
Don't be a sore loser now, You admitted to changing God's words to play a trick on others here already, which only proved your place as a non believer in God and faithless racist xenophoebe. so does your comment not pos a threat to world peace now?

Let me guess, Jews could not be people from the middle east according to you ?

Why did did cain Slay able?

Out of jealousy that God accepted Abel's sacrifice for he gave his best calf while Cain offered things he considered garbage, and this proves that Blood has nothing to do with faith, it's a choice. ----------------------------------------------------
Lets get this straight; Fear comes from not knowing, been in the dark, basically "ignorant" about something of concern which needs to be confronted.

So, Lets say someone had a concern about Judaism or Islam, and wanted to confront these fears or concerns, so for example they search on the internet with Google about it..,

¿¿¿¿ Is doing a search like you did by going to a Jihad-Watch website gonna help you cross reference the information which concerns you alone or maybe cross referencing it for the facts????

Sounds to me like you did a search to feed the fire rather then confront your concerns, so do not blame others if you loose sleep over cheating yourself out of the truth and been that dishonest about it all.,

But of-course you could be that ignorant to not understand and simply side with others who want to conclude he same things you do in the dark about all of this, but then at some point in time you will have to move on with your life

So you do not need to be a genius to see that the people who live in fear are just ignorant in the sense that they are in the dark and need to confront something, problem is will they confront there fears or be taken by them.

[KAOSKTRL]

http://www.jamiat.org.za/aj/local/stoning.html

Question :

Recently a certain Yusuf Ismail of Durban had written to the "Daily News" of April 9, 2002 under the heading "Adultress stoning is not Islamic law". The brother blatantly rejects stoning to death the adulterer and adulteress as a "way out" , referring to it as "this barbaric custom". There was further confusion in the role of stoning when letters to the editor from non-Muslims said the things like "Is he (Yusuf Ismail) sure stoningis not Islamic Law?" We the ordinary Muslims are rather confused - can the Jurists / Ulama please clarify the Islamic perspective?

Answer : Matters related to Shariah are proven primarily from the Qur’an, Hadith and Consensus of the Muslims. If any question still remains unanswered then we refer to the works of the Great Jurists of the past.

The matter under discussion i.e. adultery and the stoning of the adulterers is clearly established in the Holy Quran, Hadith and the consensus of the Sahabah (Radiallaahu Anhum) i.e. the Companions of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

Allah Ta’ala mentions in Verse 15 of Sura An-Nisaa,

"And those of your women who commit illegal intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them, and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women ) to the houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them a way out." This way was explained by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in clear unconditional terms.

Ubaada bin Saamit (Radiallaahu Anhu) says, "Rasulullah r used to become over-burdened when Wahi (revelation) used to descend upon him and his face used to become pale. One day revelation descended upon him r and he had the same experience. After the revelation he r said, "Take (this command of Allah) from me. Allah has ordained "a way out" for them (adultress). A person married in a valid Islamic contract would be lashed 100 times and then stoned to death. An unmarried person will be lashed 100 times and then expelled from the city for a year."(Ahkaamul Quran -Vol 2 Pg 107)

So, "(Ahkaamul Quran -Vol 2 Pg 107)

So, " was not explained or interpreted by human logic, but was a revelation from Allah Ta’ala. Similar are the examples of salaat, zakaat and other obligations in Shariah. The pragmatic method of salaat and zakaat is not found in the Qur’an, nor is any human using his limited intellect permitted to interpret them.

Every Muslim understands and believes very firmly that the method and times for salaah as well as the details pertaining to zakaat that were taught by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the divine way shown by Allah Ta’ala through revelation.

No Muslim in a sane state of mind can negate this.

In the very same way Allah Ta’ala has explained that He will ordain " was not explained or interpreted by human logic, but was a revelation from Allah Ta’ala. Similar are the examples of salaat, zakaat and other obligations in Shariah. The pragmatic method of salaat and zakaat is not found in the Qur’an, nor is any human using his limited intellect permitted to interpret them.

Every Muslim understands and believes very firmly that the method and times for salaah as well as the details pertaining to zakaat that were taught by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the divine way shown by Allah Ta’ala through revelation.

No Muslim in a sane state of mind can negate this.

In the very same way Allah Ta’ala has explained that He will ordain ". This way was explained by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in clear unconditional terms

There are many other traditions of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in which the "stoning of adulterer and adulteress". This way was explained by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in clear unconditional terms

There are many other traditions of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in which the "It is not lawful to (spill) the blood of a believer who testifies that there is no Deity but Allah and Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the messenger of Allah Ta’ala, except on three occasions :

1.1 A n adulterer/adulteress
1.2 A murderer
1.3 A renegade
(Sahih Muslim – Vol 2. Pg 1006)

2. The incidents of the Sahaabi Ma’iz ibne Malik and the Ghamidya woman are clear cut and found in almost all the books of Hadith. They were both pelted to death after testifying to adultery.

3.Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)

Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, " is clearly proven.

1. Hadhrat Abdullah bin Mas’ood (Radiallaahu Anhu) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) said, "
Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009
Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65

The famous commentator of Muslim Shareef, Imaam Nawawi (Rahmatullaahi Alayhi) mentions regarding this lecture of Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu), that this fear that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) had, is found in the Khawaarij and those who agreed with them. Therefore this is a miracle of Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) It is also possible that he (Hd. Umar Radiallaahu Anhu) learnt this from Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

4. Hadhrat Jabir (Radiallaahu Anhu) narrates that a person from the Aslam tribe came to Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and admitted that he had committed adultery. He testified four (4) times. He was a married man. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) ordered that he be stoned.

Sahih Al Bukhari – Vol 2. pg 1006

5. Hadhrat Abu Huraira (Radiallaahu Anhu) says that when Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) gave the order of stoning, he Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam), said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

After acknowledgement Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) gave the order of stoning.

Sahih Muslim, Vol 2. pg 69

In this Hadith Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) clearly says that "By that Being in whose control is my soul, I will grant an order with the Book of Allah." is in accordance to the Book of Allah.

In light of the above, the Khulafa-e-Rashedeen and the leaders of the Ummah had all practised "stoning".

1. Hadhrat Uthmaan bin Affaan (Radiallaahu Anhu) stoned an adulteress. (Muwatta Malik pg 686, Nur Muhammad, Araam Baagh)

2. Hadhrat Ali (Radiallaahu Anhu) stoned a woman on a Friday and said, "stoning"Similarly, there is a consensus of the Ulama to disassociate from Islam, all those who argue about that which is found clearly in the Quraan, e.g. The Khawaarij are regarded as disbelievers because of rejecting the stoning of a married adulterer/adulteress.

There is much more that could be said on this subject. However this should suffice to make the Ummah understand the law of stoning. This should be an eye-opener for everyone, especially those who have a tendency to speak excessively, that one should rather remain silent if one is unaware of the Islamic ruling.

Uttering statements contrary to the Quraan and Hadith could lead to Kufr, which in turn drags one to the Hell-fire.

Hadith : Hadhrat Abu Hurairah (Radiallaahu Anhu) reported that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) said, "I stoned her in accordance to the teachings of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) – (Sahih Bukhari Vol 2, pg 1006)

The Consensus of the Ummah

From the time of the Sahabah (Radiallaahu Anhum) to this date all believers are unanimous that a married adulterer/ess should be stoned. This consensus is reported by many of the famous scholars. A few are listed.

1. Hafiz ibne Hazam in Maraatibul Ijmain

2. Ibne Qudaama (Rahmatullaahi Alayhi) in Al Mughni, Vol 10. pg 118

3. Abul Waleed Muhammad bin Ahmed Al-Qurtubi in Bidaayatul Mujtahid Vol 2 pg 325.

Allam Anwar Shah Kashmiri writes in his book Ikfaarul Mulhideen, pg 57,

" (Sahih Bukhari.)

May Allah save us all from His Displeasure and Wrath and instill in us the Love for the true teachings of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Ameen.

[KAOSKTRL]

Chapter 3: PRESCRIBED PUNISHMENT FOR AN ADULTERER AND AN ADULTERESS
Book 017, Number 4191:

'Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.

Book 017, Number 4192:

'Ubada b. as-Samit reported that whenever Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.

Book 017, Number 4193:

This hadith has been reported on the authority of Qatada with the same chain of transmitters except with this variation that the unmarried is to be lashed and exiled, and the married one is to be lashed and stoned. There is neither any mention of one year nor that of one hundred.


Chapter 4: STONING OF A MARRIED ADULTERER
Book 017, Number 4194:

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

Book 017, Number 4195:

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Zuhri with the same chain of transmitters.


Chapter 5: HE WHO CONFESSES HIS GUILT OF ADULTERY
Book 017, Number 4196:

Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him, He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times, and as he testified four times against his own self, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad? He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him. Ibn Shihab (one of the narrators) said: One who had heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah saying this informed me thus: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the place of prayer (either that of 'Id or a funeral). When the stones hurt him, he ran away. We caught him in the Harra and stoned him (to death). This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen....html#017.4194

[KAOSKTRL]

And Islams stupidity reaches insane hights with this story not only do we see ADAM Is so feeble minded he has no recolection of having built the kaba his sons are fighing over their own sister,

Cain had a sister who was more beautiful than Abel’s sister.

Tabari I:308 “The story of Cain and Abel was told by Allah to Muhammad in the Qur’an saying, ‘Recite to them—meaning the people of the Book—the story of the two sons of Adam truthfully…to the end of the story.’”

“Cain had a sister who was more beautiful than Abel’s sister. Abel sought to marry Cain’s sister, but Cain refused and said, ‘She is my sister born together with me and she is more beautiful than your sister.
I deserve to marry her more than you do. Adam ordered Cain to marry her to Abel. However, he refused.”

“Cain and Abel offered a sacrifice to Allah to find out who was more deserving of the girl. On that day Adam was absent as he had gone to have a look at Mecca. Allah had said to Adam, ‘Adam do you know that I have a House on Earth?’
Adam replied, ‘Indeed I do not.’ Allah said, ‘I have a house in Mecca. So go there!’ Adam said to heaven, ‘Guard my two children.’ But heaven refused. Adam addressed the Earth with the same request, but the Earth refused.”

“He addressed the mountains but they also refused. He then spoke to Cain, who said, ‘Yes. You shall go and when you return you shall be happy with the condition you find your family.’”

“Abel offered a fat young sheep and Cain a sheaf of corn. Finding a large ear, Cain husked and ate it. A fire came down from heaven. It consumed Abel’s offering and left that of Cain. Whereupon Cain got angry and said, ‘I shall kill you to prevent you from marrying my sister. Abel said, ‘Allah accepts only from those who fear Him….’ One day Cain came upon him while he was asleep. He lifted a big rock and crushed Abel’s head with it.”

“Allah sent two ravens that were brothers and they fought with one another. When the one killed the other, it dug a hole for it and covered it with soil. When Cain saw that, he said, ‘Woe to me! Am I incapable of being like that raven, so as to conceal my brother?’ This explains Allah’s word: ‘And Allah sent a raven to scratch a hole in the earth in order to show him how to conceal his brother.’” [Qur’an 5:31]

It would be funny is it were not so damn sad. :(

[KAOSKTRL]

As renound an authority as you have proven yourself to be Tabari still holds a slight edge on you.

Tabari
Related: Biblical History Miscellaneous Biographies

(täbä´rē) (Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Jarir at-Tabari) , c.839-c.923, Arab historian and commentator. The name Tabari was given him because he was born in Tabaristan, Persia. He traveled widely in Syria and Egypt, setting finally in Baghdad. He was admired for his erudition, his memory, and his industry. He wrote two great works, a commentary on the Qur'an and Annals of the Apostles and the Kings. The commentary became a standard from which later commentators drew. The annals are an attempt at recounting universal history from the creation to 915. Condensed from an even longer work, they are not a continuous narrative but contain differing versions of the same story and are thus a prime collection of Arabic sources. Tabari also taught law.

http://onlineislamicstore.com/tabari.html
Get your tabari here
http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b3828.html
Your Ishaq here

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/authorit.html#A
And the names of your arguments here.

[G4-450]

LOL

Tabari again is not the Koran, and the jews where even more strict then anything you posted here, and even though these rulings have nothing to do with Islam directly and the fact that they are un authentic historical sayings which where never proven or put to practice, muslims only havethe Koran as evidence and nothig else is needed.

So why are you flaming by repeating your posts over and over, it is you has the problem, not islam.

If you think you could do better as a muslim then the people you are complaining about then prove it as one, there is no other reason for your attacking islam but from extreme fear and been a coward about it.

[KAOSKTRL]

Weak Hadith Defense

Summary: Sometimes a weak hadith defense is used to divert the criticism of Muhammad's behavior that is recorded in ancient traditional Muslim sources.
1. The Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim collections are considered to be authentic historical records by orthodox Muslims. So, a weak hadith defense is unjustified when these sources are used to critique Muhammad sayings and behavior.
2. A weak hadith technically refers to the chain of narrators (isnad), reputation of the narrators, and the text of narration (matn). Even if there were a technical flaw in a hadith, it does not necessarily mean that the hadith is not an authentic one. Authenticity and weakness are two different concepts.
3. The Qur'an has less technical support for its authenticity than do many hadiths. Yet, it is considered authentic by traditional Muslims. So, if an historical saying must be rejected because it is technically weak, then much of the Qur'an would have to be rejected too.
4. Some Muslims use the weak hadith defense, because they approach Muhammad with their own wishful presuppositions. So, they automatically reject any hadith that does not meet the standard of their uncritical assumptions. Our beliefs should be grounded in historical reality: not wishful assumptions.
5. The third standard (matn) to judge the authenticity of a hadith is an illegitimate standard. Present-day beliefs don't determine the events of the past.


So there we see another down fall of muslims,
When confronted with authentic hadith they object to ,
As it is often a source of humialtion and discomfort,
They head for the nearest exits.
The quran teaches mohammed was a glories pattern for mulsim to follow,
But offers no example of that life .

One has to go to tabari ,muslim, bukari, and Ishaq to know what a muslims is supposed to do.
In typical Islamic fashion muslim"scholars "
Redact the online collections to remove the distressing facts just as Guillaume did with Ishaq.
It is like a night mare that just keeps going on and on,

I guess that what muslims deserve, for holding a pedophilic rapist as the best example for a muslim to follow.

[KAOSKTRL]

Oh and lets not forget the obligatory LOL.
That is always important to add to your increasingly meaningless posts now that your hategroup is being fully exposed right in front of god and everybody,
Don't worry, it will begetting significantly worse .