[tomder55]

The $6 billion is nothing compared to the $$$ that Iran has been able to obtain since Quid Pro Joe decided to not enforce the oil sanctions . Trump's enforcement limited their sale of oil to between 400,000 to 500,000 barrels per day. Quid dropped enforcement and Iran increased their sale of oil to between 3 and 4 million barrels a day. Iran’s cash reserves went from $7 Billion to $70 to $80 Billion .


The other thing is Quid is absolutely lying about his ability to freeze the $6 billion in Qatar . He cannot do that . The money was transferred to Iran and is in safe keeping in Hamas friendly Qatar ;where Hamas maintains it's main office in Doha .
In addition ,Qatar aids Hamas to almost a half $billion a year. But Clueless Joe thinks Qatar will intervene to get hostages held by the terrorist released.

[tomder55]

Genocide is a term used to describe violence against members of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group with the intent to destroy the entire group.

From 1990 to 2022 the population of Palestine increased from 1.98 million to 5.04 million people. This is a growth of 155.0 percent in 32 years.

If the Israelis are practicing genocide they are doing a lousy job of it .

[jlisenbe]

It has become so common to see these wild claims (such as Israeli genocide) thrown around with no evidence whatsoever to support them.

In the meantime, there is this.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office has released photos Thursday that it said confirmed Hamas terrorists "murdered and burned" babies in Kfar Aza, in southern Israel near the Gaza Strip.
The images purport to show the bodies of two infants who were burned alive, with the third appearing to show a decapitated infant in a blood-splattered onesie. The photos appear to have been taken inside a medical facility.
"Here are some of the photos Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu showed to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken," read a post by Netanyahu’s office on X. "Warning: These are horrifying photos of babies murdered and burned by the Hamas monsters. Hamas is inhuman. Hamas is ISIS."

[Wondergirl]

Have you heard of the Samson Option?

[jlisenbe]

I have not.

[Wondergirl]

From Wikipedia:

"The Samson Option (Hebrew: ברירת שמשון, b'rerat shimshon) is the name that some military analysts and authors have given to Israel's deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a "last resort" against a country whose military has invaded and/or destroyed much of Israel."

[jlisenbe]

Not sure what your point is. I doubt that anyone is expecting that of Israel in this situation.

[Wondergirl]

Not sure what your point is. I doubt that anyone is expecting that of Israel in this situation.

But you can destroy them before they destroy you.

[tomder55]

If the options are national destruction or launching nukes what do you think the US would do ? It is a simple deterrence doctrine

fact Libya gave up nuclear ambiguity and Evita saw it as a green ligjht -.

Clinton on Qaddafi: We came, we saw, he died - YouTube

fact . The world talked Ukraine into giving up it's deterrence by surrendering its Soviet nukes in the 1994 Bucharest Memorandum in exchange for territorial integrity . You see how that worked out .

[jlisenbe]

Same as MAD. No difference in both of them being a system of deterrence.

[RandomPerson36]

"Some of Israel's policies are debatable that is true. But none of them reach the levels of either extermination or forceable removal."

"Now if the situation were reversed and the Palestinians controlled the small sliver of land that is Israel..."

You are both confused and have things completely mixed up, and it doesn't seem like you watched the documentary I cited or the Instagram posts that cover some of its important points. Therefore, here is my attempt to cover it.

"Israel" covers and controls the VAST MAJORITY of Palestinian land. Palestinians have been forced to move exclusively to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the latter being only ~25 x 7.5 mi. big. That's about twice the size of Washington, DC. And to put that into perspective, Washington, DC has a population of ~713,00 people as of 2020 while 2.2 MILLION Palestinians have been displaced from their villages and expected to live on this strip of land (that's more than TRIPLE the population of DC in the same space; try to imagine the density/crowdedness and how you would function in those circumstances). In the 1930s-40s in fact, the Israeli city "Sderot" was originally actually the village of "Huj," which was 100% inhabited by Muslim Palestinians. Israelis only started arriving to the land and living in villages like Huj when Britain gave them permission after WWII, even though they KNEW there were already people living there. Because of this, Nakba ("the catastrophe" in English) occurred, in which the Israelis displaced and depopulated 500+ Palestinian villages or 750,000+ people. Those who refused to leave were shot dead.



THEN, the United Nations attempted to correct this action by passing Resolution 194, which states the following:
“Refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.”

This is an international law that "Israel" continues to REFUSE to follow and has violated for decades now. The First Prime Minister of "Israel," Ben Gurion, explicitly said "We must expel the Arabs and take their places." Military orders reflecting this are pictured below:



Furthermore, in regard to Israel's policies being "debatable" and "self-defense," please view the following image:



This is from the documentary and shows an Israeli soldier about to shoot and kill a 14-year-old child who was merely hanging a flag on the fence. He then laughs and cheers after she's dead, calling those trying to help her "Sons of Bit**es." See timestamps 47:23 to 48:20 for the full filming of the shooting in the documentary I linked in my last post. Israeli soldiers did the exact same thing to medics during the Great March of Return, who were clearly dressed in medic uniforms with their arms raised as they approached the fences trying to gather the wounded who were previously shot and gassed. The same applied to disabled citizens who were clearly and visibly using wheelchairs and crutches (timestamps 49:53 to 50:27). These soldiers were given permission via a shoot-to-kill policy on all these people who were several hundred meters away from the fence, completely unarmed or only holding slings of rocks at the very most.

So please, explain to me how acts like these from Israelis are "debatable" and for "self-defense." Are children, medics, and the disabled threats now? Are these policies of displacing original inhabitants of the land and then refusing to let them return "debatable," or outright wrong and a violation of international law? With all due respect, I believe my thinking is perfectly clear.

[Wondergirl]

What's the history of Israel being populated?

[tomder55]

Time does not permit me to do a point by point rebuttal . Let's just start with one contention.... that Israel expelled 750,000 Palestinians in 1948

It is true that SOME were expelled . Some of the richer Palestinians left in anticipation of the war . The VAST majority of those who left were complying to a call from Arab invading nations telling the civilian population to get out of the way of their armies. There was no massive expulsion . To the contrary
Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel.

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)


What you do not mention is the Jews who were expelled from Arab States . They were welcomed in Israel. Was the same accommodations given to Palestinians in Arab states ? NO ! Even now with Israel needing to go into Gaza to remove the Hamas threat ;Egypt refuses to open the Rafah gate to allow Palestinians refugees to enter Egypt . Egypt could easily on their own accommodate the entire Palestinian community in the Sinai . Why hasn't nations like Qatar ;and Turkey who both house Hamas leadership allow Palestinian refugees ?

The answer is obvious . They want Palestinians living in squalor because it serves their goal of fostering hatred for Jews .

Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel.

Today 20% of rhe Knesset is Arab members .


btw I both watched the propaganda video and read Jimmy Carter's fractured faerie tale 'Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.'

I found neither persuasive. His distortions are again too many to mention. The fact is that once Jews started moving there, economic opportunities began to develop. Arabs from neighboring states moved there . Before the Jewish migration that began after WWI ,the area was occupied by nomadic tribes.

There was NO Palestine prior to the UN mandate. The name itself is a fictional re-creation of the Romans calling the land Palestine instead of Israel when they defeated Israel.
The word was not widely used in modern times until the Egyptian Yasser Arafat created the PLO in 1964.

[RandomPerson36]

The VAST majority of those who left were complying to a call from Arab invading nations telling the civilian population to get out of the way of their armies.

It looks like you got the Arab-invading-nations part from the general "History of Palestine" page from Wikipedia, but that does NOT apply to what I'm referring to. The 750,000+ Palestinians were expelled from their very land Zionist militias conquered; not other Arab nations! Additionally, the Wikipedia page I'm assuming you got your part form literally states that "Israel" would not allow them to return, so how can one be a "citizen," as you later argue, if they aren't even allowed to live on the land of that "citizenship," let alone a "full" and "equal" citizenship that your source hypocritically states.









There was no massive expulsion.

So I guess 750,000 isn't a massive number anymore?

Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel.

While I have already disputed this claim above to an extent, this belief right here is also contributing to the root of the problem. Why should Palestinians become citizens of "Israel" when they were there BEFORE? If anything, it should be the reverse, but Israelis believe they are the "chosen" people and should be the sole occupants of the land. Their government doesn't truly want Palestinian citizens; they're doing everything to try and kill them, regardless of whether they identify as Hamas or regular civilians!

Furthermore, while I don't fully agree with your statements about the surrounding Middle Eastern countries, it is indeed a true shame that they're not helping. I don't think the motive is anti-Semitism, but more likely money, politics, and resources, as what a lot of problems generally stem from.

Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel.

Completely false. First of all, the UN "resolution" you're referring to was an unfair solution to begin with. It was created after the poor decision Britain made when declaring an already-inhabited land full of people with their own culture and society a home for other people to make completely theirs. Second of all, that "resolution," as you stated, was made in 1947, which was then nullified once the UN announced Resolution 194 in 1948, which I cited in my previous post. And third of all, Palestinians have ALREADY TRIED to be their own independent country despite the Israeli occupation. They held a democratic election in which the people voted for the Hamas to control Gaza. In reaction to losing this election, the Israeli party revealed that this was what they wanted all along so that they could declare Palestine a "hostile state," which in their eyes (and most of the rest of the world because of biased media), would "justify" the absolute violent and barbaric acts they have been taking on ALL Palestinians, as I've described in my previous post. All vile with machiavellian manipulation.





There was NO Palestine prior to the UN mandate.

Land and countries have gone through different names and rulers throughout all of history. That doesn't mean that the PEOPLE who inhabit that land/country don't exist either. That's like saying Native Americans and their tribes didn't exist because they weren't discovered/known until Christopher Columbus and other settlers/pilgrims/colonialists arrived. And what the United States did to them is just as bad.

[RandomPerson36]

Also, the whole thing about Hamas "killing Israeli babies" and "decapitating/burning Israeli babies" has been taken back and falsified. The original reporter, Israeli military, and President Biden have all retracted their statements and there's no proof out there to support these claims. You can Google it yourself if you won't watch the Instagram posts I link; there's plenty of news articles.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyV7N...M1YmI2Ng%3D%3D

https://instagram.com/stories/sbeih....c4MmM1YmI2Ng==

Meanwhile, an interview with former Prime Minister of "Israel," Naftali Bennett, shows him questioning why the interviewer is asking about Palestinian CIVILIANS and clearly states not giving Palestinian CIVILAINS food, water, or electricity:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyT8s...M1YmI2Ng%3D%3D

[tomder55]

Siege warfare is a b*tch . I saw no general outcry when Russia leveled Grozny

If I was commanding the Israeli forces I would not commit a single IDF soldier until a capitulation from cutting off essential services. This will save both Israeli and Palestinian lives . Will the people of Gaza suffer ? Sure . They suffer now because Hamas instead of administering the area a responsible leaders has used them as disposable pawns to achieve their goals of extermination of Jews as enumerated in their charter .

I hear the moaning and groaning about Israel's tactics but not a word that Hamas is holding not only hostages (not prisoners ) from Israel and other nations ;but also that the bass turd Hamas uses their own population as human shields .

Hamas’ most common uses of human shields include: Firing rockets, artillery, and mortars from or in proximity to heavily populated civilian areas, often from or near facilities which should be protected according to the Geneva Convention (e.g. schools, hospitals, or mosques). Locating military or security-related infrastructures such as HQs, bases, armouries, access routes, lathes,3 or defensive positions within or in proximity to civilian areas. Protecting terrorists’ houses and military facilities, or rescuing terrorists who were besieged or warned by the IDF.4„ Combating the IDF from or in proximity to residential and commercial areas, including using civilians for intelligence gathering missions

Israel has given warning to Gaza citizens to evacuate and Hamas has told them to ignore the warning .

LIVE | Israel Urges Gaza Residents To Evacuate City; ‘Hamas Using Civilians As Human Shields…’ - YouTube

Hamas tells Gaza residents to stay put as Israel ground offensive looms | Reuters

It looks like you got the Arab-invading-nations part from the general "History of Palestine" page from Wikipedia

I never use Wiki as a primary source. The fact is that it was the Arab nation's invasion that created refugee issue

Arab publications were all but calling refugees traitors .

"The first of our fifth-column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."

The Jaffa newspaper 'Ash Shaab', (January 30, 1948).

[RandomPerson36]

Please don't believe everything the news/media says. "The Hamas use their people as 'human shields'" has been said over and over again, but its the peoples' own choice and the fact that the Zionist government wants to kill them as they try and leave that keeps them in place, not the Hamas. What's happening now is a buildup of all the grief, misery, pain, violence, destruction, and brutality the Zionist military has been doing to the Palestinians for several decades.











Imagine, tomder55, that you and your family have been living on the same land for generations when, all of a sudden, some unfamiliar people knock on your door and tell you, "This is our home now. Get out." Of course, your natural response would most likely be something along the lines of "What, are you kidding? No! This is my house! I built/paid for it and have been living here for years!" They take this as noncompliance and one of three things happen:

1. They completely ignore/disregard your response/argument/proof of residence and bring in some random people you've never met or known, and they start living in your house with your family, eating your food, and using your resources as if it's all their own. Any attempt to stop this is met with brutal consequences.

2. You're awoken in the middle of the night to a loud, horrible noise as the walls around you shake and begin to collapse. If you manage to get out, you see either a bulldozer or bomb breaking apart/exploding your house, leaving it shambles. You now have nothing but the clothes on your back and the people around you who also managed to escape, and all you can do is either face the enemy or run. If you choose the latter, you will find yourself with little where to go, and will eventually face the enemy again.



3. They beat or shoot you on the spot, leaving you dead or dying. (And this doesn't even just happen when asking people to leave their homes; they do this on the streets and at checkpoints with innocent civilians just trying to hand out leaflets or peacefully protest!)

Now, as Israel "asks" (I will explain why I put this word in quotation marks below) for Palestinian civilians (not citizens; they were never considered citizens) to evacuate, what do you think the real motive is? To prevent them from dying in the imminent battle? NO! It's so the land will be empty and they can take it all at ease as they please! They'll be killing them regardless of whether they stay or go!

As I've stated at the very beginning of this thread, Palestine is surrounded by "Israel;" they cannot escape by sea because of the blockade (assuming they even have large enough ships for that kind of evacuation to begin with), and the paths they need to cross by land have been bombed to oblivion and planted with mines. There's also a HUGE wall (that, by the way, cost ~$1.1 billion to construct; where do you think a large portion of that money came from?), that surrounds Gaza to begin with, and if any civilian is seen trying to climb or get through it by any means, they are killed. Do you honestly believe that all the money the U.S. and other countries around the world give "Israel" for weapons and their military is solely for the Hamas and "self defense?" NO! They're trying, and have documentation showing approved plans, to kill ALL Palestinians. ALL of them. The fact is that the Zionist government is the epitome of genocide, and everyone with the power to stop them is letting them get away with it.



This is why Palestinians are choosing to stay; they are not being forced by the Hamas. They know they are in a bleak situation; they will die if they stay, or die if they try and leave. Imagining myself in the same situation and knowing my death is inevitable, I would stay too so I can at least die standing my ground for my home, family, and history rather than fleeing with my back to the enemy. They're not going to let 1948 repeat itself.

The fact is that it was the Arab nation's invasion that created refugee issue.

...No, as I've said and shown, it was the Zionist militias themselves who marched in and expelled or killed Palestinians in their villages. I will gladly cite more sources for this at the bottom of this post.

I have now spent multiple hours making these posts, finding and citing my sources and real pictorial and auditory documentation out there, and spreading the truth of Palestine. In reflection, it doesn't seem like anyone's minds were changed; maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not very hopeful. AskMeHelpDesk is a website where one is expected to ask questions and get answers, but in all the threads I've seen created recently, it's mainly just statement after statement with usually just the same 3-5 people participating, and I am not asking questions either at this point. I am honestly left just sad and tired now, and I need to focus on problems I do have some influence/control over. Good day.

References

Shay, H. (2019). Dear Palestine A Social History of the 1948 War. Stanford University Press. ISBN 978-1-5036-2766-6.

Warf, C. & Charles, G. (2020). Clinical Care for Homeless, Runaway and Refugee Youth: Intervention Approaches, Education and Research Directions. Springer International Publishing. ISBN 978-3-030-40675-2.

Gerber, H. (2008). Remembering and Imagining Palestine: Identity and Nationalism from the Crusades to the Present. Palgrave Macmillan UK. ISBN 978-0-230-58391-7.

Kristofer, J. P.-O., Johannes, D.S., Jacques, H. (2010). Retooling Peace Philosophy: A Critical Look at Israel's Separation Strategy. In Candice C. Carter, Ravindra Kumar (ed.). Peace Philosophy in Action. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 49. doi:10.1057/9780230112995. ISBN 978-0-230-11299-5.

Ghaleb, N. (2015). "The Nakba—Flight and Expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948". In Andreas Hoppe (ed.). Catastrophes Views from Natural and Human Sciences. Springer. p. 81.

Slater, J. (2020). Mythologies Without End: The US, Israel, and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1917-2020. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-045908-6.

"Why Nakba is the Palestinians' most sombre day, in 100 and 300 words". BBC News. 15 May 2018.

Ibish, H. (2018). "A 'Catastrophe' That Defines Palestinian Identity". The Atlantic.

[tomder55]

Imagine, tomder55, that you and your family have been living on the same land for generations when, all of a sudden, some unfamiliar people knock on your door and tell you, "This is our home now. Get out."

Nice propaganda but please don't believe everything you hear on Al-Jazeera . The reality is that at the turn of the 19th century; around the time of the Balfour declaration ,the territory was the dregs of the Ottoman empire with few inhabitants. Except for a handful of educated elites living in towns ,the rest were nomadic Bedouins picking up farm jobs where available .

There were few Jews too. There was no territory ever recognized as Palestine. It was only Jews that ever recognized it as a homeland . They were in diaspora being persecuted for centuries.

Before WWI the return of Jews began

They purchased the land they lived on from the Turks .They brought with them agricultural know how ;and turned desert into oasis. Arabs began to migrate there as the jobs the Jews were creating became available .

After WWI the larger Jewish migration began. They continued to BUY land ;bring agriculture and industry and attracting more Arabs as a result.

[tomder55]

North Gaza is what they show in the compliant press. It has the tall buildings. This is not true of all Gaza. South Gaza was once Israeli farms making a lot of money selling fruit and flowers to Europe. . Now it is rapidly returning to desert due to neglect . This is where Hamas operates it's terror training camps .

It is wide open and available for the evacuation that Israel called for so civilians could be spared.


In past engagements Israel would announce a specific building they would attack to give plenty of time for evacuation . That was a signal that Hamas used to make sure there were enough women and children in the building for a good photo-op.

This time they are saying every building in north Gaza is fair game .

Hamas (Hey useful idiots of the compliant press ,they are terrorists; NOT militants ) is preventing this evacuation at the point of a gun so they can have their civilian population as expendable fodder . A dead civilian makes for great propaganda video and photos as are being supplied above .

This is not stated explicitly but the civilians know that Hamas administers the strip by intimidation and coercion.

Be prepared ;the compliant press has the word "proportionality" ready on their keyboards . Proportionality as Hamas challenges Israel's right to exist .

[jlisenbe]

Hey useful idiots of the compliant press ,they are terrorists; NOT militants

A truth that has been clearly demonstrated over the past week. The Israelis need to move into the Gaza strip and reassert control over it. No more trying to be "Mr. Nice Guy". It doesn't worth with these people.