[jlisenbe]

Voting liberal dem about 99% of the time makes you a liberal dem.

[Wondergirl]

Voting liberal dem about 99% of the time makes you a liberal dem.

How do you know what I vote?

[jlisenbe]

By who you support on this site.

[Wondergirl]

I vote for a person, not a political party.

[jlisenbe]

Well...most people vote for persons since you have very little alternative.

[Wondergirl]

No, many vote a straight party ticket, not for specific individuals who are running.

[tomder55]

2. One solution to gun problem

"I guess I’m what you’d call a gun guy. I have raised all my children around guns and with more morals than the government. I can’t stop the senseless murders, and I don’t believe war is a solution to any problem. I don’t have an answer for that, but what I do have is a good idea that my gun friends and I have all talked about, so here it is. My solution to part of the gun problem is simple. All ammunition should be sold only through the local police department, and proper identification and a hand scan would be needed to purchase. The police would not add fees or taxes to the manufacturer’s asking price. No municipalities could add a dollar to the price. Ammunition could not be taxed.

Only a criminal would worry about a hand scan. If somebody gives you that as a reason, look twice.

I would also laser-engrave a number on each casing, so you can tell where they came from.

Honest hunters and shooters don’t worry about stuff like that."

Yeah honest hunters should be ok with having their constitutional rights abridged by the government . It is the same bogus argument that says if people have nothing to hide then why are they concerned about illegal police surveillance ?

The rest of the suggestion comes down to prohibition arguments. Be it booze drugs guns ,illegal alternatives are always available . And I'll say it clear. People who support open borders should not complain about illegal weapons and drugs.

This is what I think . Gun supporters already make a serious concession to the gun control crowd by not objecting to gun registration . The biggest reason for the 2nd amendment was to prevent government from disarming Americans . Having a government database of gun owners is a serious step in favor of the government that would attempt disarming the populace.

[Wondergirl]

But isn't it supposed to be the militia members who have the guns, not just anybody? Not everyone is a militia member.

[jlisenbe]

People who support open borders should not complain about illegal weapons and drugs.

Exactly correct.

But isn't it supposed to be the militia members who have the guns, not just anybody? Not everyone is a militia member.

Militias were local, informal groups of citizens who, when needed, would band together for self defense in emergencies. The whole idea rested upon a free and armed citizenry. So no, it is not militia members only who would have the guns since militias, frequently, did not have "members". The founding fathers were very clear on the issue of an armed citizenry.

“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” – Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

[tomder55]

comment # 130 :

groan !!!

I have had this discussion a thousand times . The bill of rights are about individual liberties and what the government SHALL NOT do . Period

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." (George Mason,)

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.” (Thomas Jefferson )

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? It is feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.” (Tench Coxe)

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed ― unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” (James Madison)

The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”(Joseph Story)

[jlisenbe]

It is hard to get people to pay attention.

[tomder55]

Tench Coxe was a delegate to the convention from PA. He said in the quote provided that the weapons referred to by the Second Amendment comprised “every other terrible implement of the soldier.” This flies in the face of Clueless' misquote of Scalia Thursday night . Clueless misquote was "It was Justice Scalia who wrote, and I quote: ‘Like most rights, the right Second Amendment — the rights granted by the Second Amendment are not unlimited.’ Not unlimited. It never has been.”

Scalia's quote from the Heller decision was “the right secured by the Second Amendment.

Scalia was saying correctly that the only way the people could secure their rights is by the right to bear arms .It is not secured by the good faith of the government because so often it is government that tries to take away liberty .


Clueless also falsely claims that the gun industry is the only one that has liability protection. More nonsense. Can you sue GM if a drunk driver plows into you while driving a Chevy ? Of course not because it is the action of the person driving the car that is responsible and not the car manufacturer.

[jlisenbe]

Contrary to what many might think, violent crime has fallen dramatically since 1990. The population has increased by about 30% since then, but murders, aggravated assault, and violent crime in general are down dramatically.

https://www.disastercenter.com/crime...more%20rows%20

[Wondergirl]

[jlisenbe]

It is hard to get people to pay attention.

The vast, vast, vast majority of those deaths were from handguns. Banning so called "assault weapons" will do practically nothing to make a dent in that number. So what do you propose we do?

[tomder55]

ammonium nitrate is simple chemistry. react ammonia with nitric acid in water and then evaporate the water. The caveat is that it is very dangerous to make it. btw common cold packs you buy in the store contain ammonium nitrate and or urea; another chemical used in explosives .

[tomder55]

Alert warns of cold packs used for explosives - Emergency Medical Services (virginia.gov)

[tomder55]

[jlisenbe]

We wouldn't have modern agriculture without ammonium nitrate. It is used by the millions of tons every year. Farmers used to mix it with fuel oil to make a sort of "farmers dynamite". When I was taking freshman chem in college, my textbook had the directions for making the stuff. That's how innocent a time we lived in. It was 1972.

I'd still love to know what liberal dems (or liberal repubs) propose to do in order to make any really serious difference in gun violence. A ban on the sale of "assault weapons" will do very little.

[tomder55]

I'll give another history example, as I am burdened by history.

The semi-automatic rifle .......1907 the Winchester Model 1907 is born ;a semi-automatic, high powered centerfire rifle, with a detachable, high capacity magazine.


Yes it looks like a rifle but acted very much like the modern day AR brand rifles. They could be purchased in a Sears Catalogue. American consumers were using them while the US military was still being issued bolt action single shot rifles . T
(fast-firing Winchesters dated back to 1866)

The biggest difference between this and today's rifles is the black plastic stock which makes todays rifles much lighter .
It was not an assault weapon or a weapon of war until the US Army adopted it and converted it to full automatic 40 years after it had already been safely owned by civilian .

What has changed since then is the values of people that we have already discussed many times. There is where the fix is needed .