[waltero]

an example of a wife submitting to her husband, what would you say?

Submit:
Accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person.

Wouldst thou that thy wife should obey thee as the church doth Christ. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. Maybe you should forget everything you have learned, Everything you think you know about life, God, and the Bible.
Clear your mind and start afresh. Pray that God reveals himself to you.

[Wondergirl]

Submit:
Accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person.

Wouldst thou that thy wife should obey thee as the church doth Christ. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

A real-life EXAMPLE!!!

An example is: George asked his wife Susan to bake oatmeal raisin cookies. She baked them that afternoon and thereby submitted to George.

[jlisenbe]

I certainly hope I am wrong. I see no reason to believe otherwise, but perhaps you will surprise me. I do wish you well.

[Wondergirl]

I certainly hope I am wrong. I see no reason to believe otherwise, but perhaps you will surprise me. I do wish you well.

What exactly are my "liberal views"?

Liberal is bad; conservative is good?

[jlisenbe]

You are a well-educated, accomplished woman, and yet you claim to need examples to understand what the widely known word "submit" means. It all gets old and tiresome. You believe the Bible unless, of course, it disagrees with you, and then you don't believe it unless asked when, again, you claim to believe it. And on and on it goes.

A day is coming, dear WG, when every mouth will be stopped.

[waltero]

A real-life EXAMPLE!!!

Your speaking Of A life I No Longer Subscribe To.
This can not be done outside the Gospel of life. 

In Genesis 3 we have the record. The serpent comes and deceives Eve, and she listens to the serpent rather than listens to Adam. Adam in turn listens to Eve instead of fulfilling his responsibility to lead Eve, and neither of the two of them listen to God. And the result is disastrous. It’s disastrous.

So God says, “Here’s how it’s gonna go from here, folks. Let me tell you how this will work.” To the woman he said, I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing. There would have been no pain in childbearing. There would have been no reason for any kind of anesthetic help. There would be no epidurals. No. No, no, no. In pain you shall bring forth your children. It’s one of the implications of the fall of man. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband. Instead of desiring to submit to your husband, you’ll just try and assert your leadership over your husband. That’s how it’ll go. “But he will rule over you.” Whether that means he will rule over you the way that he should or he will rule over you in a desire to dominate you according to his own desire, I’m not certain. I think probably the latter rather than the former. Here is where the Bible comes into play.

We can think about our world in terms of the good, the bad, the new, and the perfect. Good, bad, new, perfect. Good: God’s creation. Perfect, absolutely good. Bad: the fall of man, rebellion against God. The new, when Genesis 3:15 is fulfilled in Jesus: “The offspring will bruise his heel and he will crush his head.”

In other words, in Jesus we have a second Adam. The first Adam disobeyed, rebelled, created chaos. Christ comes as a second Adam, and he obeys where Adam fails. He takes the judgment that Adam deserved. So that what, as a result of the fall, is distorted and broken, the Lord Jesus then renews and repairs. So that Christian marriage, according to the pattern and plan of God, is only possible in Christ.

It’s not possible to even approximate to this, because by nature, I don’t want to love my wife the way Christ loved the church. That’s going to take a tremendous amount of effort, and a lot of other stuff too. And you don’t want to submit to your husbands. Goodness gracious!

So why would we do it? Well, because God says we would do it. Well, how would we do it? “Holy Spirit, breath of God, breathe your life into my miserable little existence. Fashion me according to your purposes. Make it possible for me, in my marriage, to give something of at least a flashlight in the darkness through all the bits and pieces—through the times of success and failure, the disappointments, the bad parts of the journey, the times when we’ve almost ruined it completely, but here we are, we’re still alive, we’re still here. And we’re saying, ‘Lord Jesus Christ, help me now. I don’t know how much longer we’ve got left in this amazing experiment of marriage down here. But help me then to do what your Word says.’

[jlisenbe]

Can’t make it any clearer than that Walter. Well done.

[Wondergirl]

Your speaking Of A life I No Longer Subscribe To.
This can not be done outside the Gospel of life.

You totally misunderstand my request for an example.

Like this:

Susan has a high-paying job and wants to buy a 2021 Kia Seltos. Jim, her husband, wants her to buy a 2021 Ford F-150 (guess why!). Susan submits to him and buys what he wants her to buy. Or, Jim becomes a vegan and tells Susan she must prepare only vegan dishes for both of them. Susan is not at all fond of vegan food, but submits to Jim.

Can’t make it any clearer than that Walter. Well done.

His post was as clear as mud and not at all what I asked for.

[waltero]

You are a well-educated, accomplished woman, and yet you claim to need examples to understand what the widely known word "submit" means. It all gets old and tiresome. You believe the Bible unless, of course, it disagrees with you, and then you don't believe it unless asked when, again, you claim to believe it. And on and on it goes.

And on, and on and on!

not at all what I asked for.

Why don't you ask yourself? It appears as if you have not a clue!
You can follow that sinful nature or you can give it up and follow Jesus. You have free will (which you continually point out).
Submit to Jesus is Voluntary.

[Wondergirl]

And on, and on and on!

In other words, you guys have absolutely NO idea what the word "submit" means in Bible terms. You're just saying the word over and over again.

Why don't you ask yourself? It appears as if you have not a clue!
You can follow that sinful nature or you can give it up and follow Jesus.

It has nothing to do with following anyone's sinful nature!!!

How does a wife show with her deeds that she submits to her husband?

[jlisenbe]

Submit = obey.

Knowing even now that this will do no good whatsoever for someone who cares not one whit about the meaning of "submit", I put this forward just so I can say I did. In the unlikely event you really would like to know, there is ample material below.

The Meaning of Hupotasso (Submission)

Hupotassō is the Greek word from which we get the terms relating to submission in marriage. In the New Testament it usually appears as submit, subject, or submissive. The definition from two Greek dictionaries is given below.
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
hupotassō G5293
to subordinate; reflexively to obey: – be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
hupotassō G5293
1) to arrange under, to subordinate 2) to subject, put in subjection 3) to subject one’s self, obey 4) to submit to one’s control 5) to yield to one’s admonition or advice 6) to obey, be subject


Strong's #5293: hupotasso (pronounced hoop-ot-as'-so)from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.


Thayer's Greek Lexicon:̔́hupotassō1) to arrange under, to subordinate2) to subject, put in subjection3) to subject one' s self, obey4) to submit to one' s control5) to yield to one' s admonition or advice6) to obey, be subjectPart of Speech: verbRelation: from G5259 and G5021Citing in TDNT: 8:39, 1156


Usage:This word is used 40 times:Luke 2:51: "Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother"
Luke 10:17: "even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."
Luke 10:20: "that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice,"
Romans 8:7: "against God: for it is not subject to the law of God,"
Romans 8:20: "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but"
Romans 8:20: "willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"
Romans 10:3: "their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
Romans 13:1: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no"
Romans 13:5: "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but"
1 Corinthians 14:32: "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."
1 Corinthians 14:34: "unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the"
1 Corinthians 15:27: "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when"
1 Corinthians 15:27: "when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted,"
1 Corinthians 15:27: "are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."
1 Corinthians 15:28: "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son"
1 Corinthians 15:28: "Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that"
1 Corinthians 15:28: "also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God"
1 Corinthians 16:16: "That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with"
Ephesians 1:22: "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave"
Ephesians 5:21: " Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."
Ephesians 5:22: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
Ephesians 5:24: "as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives"
Philippians 3:21: "he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
Colossians 3:18: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
Titus 2:5: "chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the"
Titus 2:9: "Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all"
Titus 3:1: "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be"
Hebrews 2:5: "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof"
Hebrews 2:8: " Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under"
Hebrews 2:8: "under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left"
Hebrews 2:8: "But now we see not yet all things put under him."
Hebrews 12:9: "shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and"
James 4:7: " Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee"
1 Peter 2:13: " Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake:"
1 Peter 2:18: "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only"
1 Peter 3:1: "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not"
1 Peter 3:5: "God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:"
1 Peter 3:22: "authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
1 Peter 5:5: "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another,"
1 Peter 5:5: "unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility:"

[Wondergirl]

All that and no real-life examples. (Yes, I too can google and find all the same nothingness you did, JL.)

Real-life examples:

Darlynn wants a baby. Matt says no. Darlynn submits to her husband's wishes and no longer asks.

Huey wants sex every Saturday morning at 9:30. Ingrid finds activities for their kids to do unsupervised during the time needed. Ingrid submits to her husband's wishes.

[jlisenbe]

Except you didn't. Why? Because you don't care, and because you probably can't look up NT Greek words.

[Wondergirl]

What you posted, JL, DID NOT AT ALL answer my plea to provide real-life examples. You simply defined the word and parroted others regarding the word "submit". PLUS, you threw in insults.

[waltero]

How does a wife show with her deeds that she submits to her husband?

let’s be clear: when the Bible talks about submission, it has nothing to do with ability. It’s not about ability. It is about order. It’s about God’s order.

A real-life EXAMPLE!!!

unless we believe in the absolute authority and infallibility of the Bible, there is no basis for us to propound these truths, to believe them, and to live in the light of them. The whole issue of submission, and therefore of authority, is very, very clear in the Bible (real-life). And so we start from the premise that the Bible is the Word of God. our identity as men and women is not tied to whether we’re in a relationship or not. Our identity is not in relationship to whether we are married or we are single. Our identity is, first of all, as made in the image of God, and then, secondly, as redeemed by the grace of God—those of us who are in Christ. And we also tried to make sure that we understand that this whole section, as Paul says, is about Christ and the church.

[Wondergirl]

let’s be clear: when the Bible talks about submission, it has nothing to do with ability.

I'm not talking about her ability; I'm asking for examples of behavior.

So how would you know a woman is submissive?

[waltero]

what we’re dealing with when we talk in terms of this submission is, if you like, the kind of submission that is my hand to my head. It’s imperative that my hand is in submission to my head. In fact, if this starts to go, it may be an indication of convulsions, it could be a case of some kind of atrophy, whatever it might be—something is broken, something is wrong. There’s no sense in which it is a matter of inferiority; it is the order of things.

[Wondergirl]

what we’re dealing with when we talk in terms of this submission is, if you like, the kind of submission that is my hand to my head. It’s imperative that my hand is in submission to my head. In fact, if this starts to go, it may be an indication of convulsions, it could be a case of some kind of atrophy, whatever it might be—something is broken, something is wrong. There’s no sense in which it is a matter of inferiority; it is the order of things.

You're very frisky -- hopping, skipping, and jumping over my question -- How would you know a woman is submissive?

Ah, I just found an answer! She's a Stepford wife, from the novel by Ira Levin -- a term used to describe a servile, compliant, submissive, spineless wife who happily does her husband's bidding and serves his every whim dutifully.

[waltero]

Unless we believe in the absolute authority and infallibility of the Bible, there is no basis for us to propound these truths, to believe them, and to live in the light of them.

Ah, I just found an answer! She's a Stepford wife, from the novel by Ira Levin -- a term used to describe a servile, compliant, submissive, spineless wife who happily does her husband's bidding and serves his every whim dutifully.

(I knew you had it in you)
I'm glad you found the example you were looking for. you still owe yourself two more, change the channel and you will know the real-life answers to your question.
 

[waltero]

This is right on!

I will re-post it (provided WG is done refuting God's Word?)...Don't want Athos missing out.

Originally posted by:InfoJunkie4Life

Athos-

Regarding the rest of your comments, skipping the useless responses:

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
Like Jl, you're playing with semantics and missing the point.

Its not so easy to dismiss my point. You have stated that disallowing women from pastoral office is misogynistic, and that misogyny is connected to violence.

If you're trying to imply that the unequal access to the pastoral office is misogynistic, then my statement stands. If you're trying to discuss why or why not women should be allowed, then refute the commandment on the grounds of biblical authority, scientific fact, or some other relevant domain.

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
Note the use of MURDER. Murder, by definition, is never justified or accidental or in war.

This is precisely my point, that prejudice is never justified, but discrimination is. Semantics matter.

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
That does NOT absolve misogyny. You're confused about justifying one because of another.

You must first demonstrate where the bible shows a hatred and dislike of women to even accuse misogyny.

I believe you are equating discrimination with prejudice. One is the action, the other is the intent. 2 separate domains.

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
"Unseen in the rest of the world". Hmmm, I suppose you can support that statement?

Read through the Wikipedia page regarding Legal Rights of Women. You will see that the Jews treated their women better than nearly all ancient cultures, and most pre-modern cultures. The main exception would be Egypt. They seem to have a pretty accepting view of women in their laws. I might point out that their laws are strikingly similar to much of Israeli law. Maybe one affected the other?

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
You're hung up on intent. Misogyny is never well-intentioned, otherwise it would be called something else.

That's the point. The Mosaic law had good intentions, thus was not misogynistic.

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
Not exactly, what I said was: He was the first to PROMOTE the idea. But ok.

The idea was called many things prior to Augustine...they have been discussed for at least 200 years prior to Augustine; given apocryphal sources, it has been an idea in discussion for 200 years prior to that. There are even some obscure sources in Talmudic tradition that discuss these ideas 500+ years prior to the apocryphal sources. You can use any sources you like, as long as you use sources. I provide them when I can, and try very hard to support my arguments with full context and evidences.

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
What follows are several Bible verses that A) prove I'm evil, B) prove all Info's claims, and B) prove I'll go to hell.

No, what followed, was several quotes from Christ stating that the scriptures were as real to Him as an encyclopedia is to us. You reading more into these verses is on you. You cannot say He played along to teach a moral lesson when He says ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” He either is speaking established fact, was a liar or was crazy. There is no middle ground.

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
Nobody said it MEANT misogyny. What it does is allow misogyny.

In that case your prior point is moot. Allowing misogyny is a feature of freedom. In order to have the ability to think freely, one must allow the possibility of misogyny. What you're saying now is that the patriarchy allows misogyny while before you were saying this is why misogyny exists in that society. You even went on to explain that because of the reasoning of the patriarchs, misogyny is "such a deeply rooted part of that society."

Quote Originally Posted by Athos
We both use our minds.

That, again, is my point. You use your minds without examining evidences and arguments regarding the topic of debate. You mischaracterize and debase original texts to support the ideas in your minds. You ignore historical fact and common wisdom to support the ideas in your minds. You should learn with the intent of enriching your mind. Your mind is not the mechanism in which to discover the world around you, but rather the world around you should be the fertile ground in which your mind is allowed to reason and to strengthen belief and virtue.