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classyT · Aug 6, 2013, 08:09 AM

Freeman,

?? The 1000 years the Lord rules this earth has NOTHING to do with where people go when they die. I'm very confused by what you are saying..

Right now when someone dies and they are a believer they are with the Lord in heaven. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now, how does that have anything to do with the 1000 year rule? I don't get it.

gromitt82 · Aug 6, 2013, 09:09 AM

ClassyT

Be careful and do not take the Holy Bible literally, word for word. St. John wrote his Revelation in the isle of Patmos about the year 70 AD. It was surely more intended for his contemporary followers than for us... And only God knows when Jesus' Parusia will take place...

So take it easy and relax. Try your best to keep walking the line and hope for the best. We are not to tell whether we shall reach the Kingdom of God. And it is also irrelevant its location or whether physical or simply spiritual. None of us has the password to let us in for this is up to God to decide in Judgement Day.

Gromitt82

dwashbur · Aug 6, 2013, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by ;

We are not to tell whether or not we shall reach the Kingdom of God.

John 5:24 "He that hears my words and believes on the one that sent me has eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death into life." I don't know how you get around that. Or Romans 5:1 "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

That's the biggest difference between biblical Christianity and too many of our denominations today. The biblical Jesus gives assurance that we are his, that we have passed from death into life, that we have eternal life and all the rest. Too many denominations overlook that part and keep people frightened that they somehow won't measure up. To me it's really a form of cruelty and a way to control people. Jesus says we can KNOW. Paul says that we DO KNOW. If your church says you can't or don't, you need a different church.

freeman4 · Aug 6, 2013, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Freeman,

???? The 1000 years the the Lord rules this earth has NOTHING to do with where people go when they die. I'm very confused by what you are saying..

Right now when someone dies and they are a believer they are with the Lord in heaven. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now, how does that have anything to do with the 1000 year rule? I don't get it.

Psalms 6:3-5 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

Isaiah 38:18-19, "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth."

I'm sure you're wondering. "Just where do we go when we die?" Don't go running to get this answer from your preacher, teacher, friend, pastor, or priest. Just go back in the Bible to find out. It is were you should always go when you're in question. However if you do at times have to go to a person for answers, always verify it in the Word of God before making any final decisions! Don't trust me or any man! Go to God's Word for the final answer and you will never go wrong.

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11-14... Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The disciples thought when Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping that he would be OK. So Jesus had to plainly say "Lazarus is dead."

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep

I think that is proof enough that when one dies they will stay in the grave until the return of Christ. If one has gods Holy Spirit as they are quickened or that is preserved for that day.

There is no one in Heaven at this time except God and His son, Jesus Christ. There is more proof but I think this is enough but only if one has Gods spirit to understand it with.

classyT · Aug 6, 2013, 05:07 PM

Mr. Freeman,

Poppycock. The apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He himself couldn't wait to be with Jesus and said so in his epistles. Jesus himself said that God was not the God of the dead but the LIVING...

hauntinghelper · Aug 6, 2013, 05:13 PM

Well said Classy!

What is your explanation for 2 Corinthians 12:2?

gromitt82 · Aug 7, 2013, 02:52 AM

Classy,

The biblical Jesus gives assurance that we are his, that we have passed from death into life, that we have eternal life and all the rest

Are you, by any chance, implying that because of that we can just do as we please and be guaranteed a first class ticket in the train to Heaven?

If you do, please accept my congratulations. Little old me, instead, share the strong believe that I will be more than lucky if I am allowed in the old caboose of the shabbiest train to Heaven.

Gromitt82

freeman4 · Aug 7, 2013, 04:51 AM

The one in 2 Cor 12: 2 was given an insight of what things will be like, he what he saw was a vision.

John 3:13

King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Sorry, that is what it states.

gromitt82 · Aug 7, 2013, 08:36 AM

Precisely. Here Paul admits he does NOT know. " I do not know—God knows".
And then it was just a vision that 2000 years ago, a man of that time, who had until recently been persecuting Jesus' followers, thought he had seen. Obviously, a man of the 1st century did not reason as a man of the 21st century.

And here again, John acknowledges that "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man"

Accepting this evidence,who are we to tell what Heaven is like and where should it be. We keep imagining Heaven as some sort of place, a paradise, but then how do we know it is not something immaterial, fully spiritual, as God itself?

Gromitt82

dwashbur · Aug 7, 2013, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by ;

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Except that the last part, "which is in heaven" isn't part of the original, and isn't something Jesus said. It was added later by a scribe and found its way into the Greek text that was used for the King James. But John didn't write and Jesus never said it. He also said this before Paul's famous experience, so it has no bearing on the question of 2 Cor 12:2 anyway.

freeman4 · Aug 7, 2013, 10:44 AM

So I don't guess that you want any part of the Kingdom of God that will be set up on this Earth? Just exactly what is wrong with this God Given Earth?

dwashbur · Aug 7, 2013, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by ;

So I don't guess that you want any part of the Kingdom of God that will be set up on this Earth? Just exactly what is wrong with this God Given Earth?

I have no idea what this question is supposed to have to do with anything we've been discussing. I'm with HH: it's impossible to have an actual conversation with you. So I'm done. You keep saying you're presenting the Scriptures; I point out an error in your analysis, and you go off on a tangent about this stuff. That tells me how well you (refuse to) take critiques of your methodology. There's no point in continuing this.

hauntinghelper · Aug 7, 2013, 01:46 PM

Nooooo kidding...

freeman4 · Aug 7, 2013, 06:00 PM

I do not mean to come across this way but it seems that there are many who do not read their Bible t get the facts.

What I said was that the Heaven that everyone is looking for will be here on this Earth and will be set up by Jesus Christ and will be ruled by His sons and or daughters who are the elect. They will be Kings and priests, helping in setting up God Kingdom on Earth.

Many prophecies point to this, then may be some of you do not believe Prophecy, I don't know.

I could quote scripture after scripture as proof and all that would be said is, where did you get that. Learn to read you bible.

Www.americasfinaldaysprophecy.org

classyT · Aug 7, 2013, 06:05 PM

Sigh...

Freeman,

What in the world did Jesus mean when he told the thief on the cross "today thou shalt be with me in paradise'? Hello?

Since the Lord's finished work on the cross we ARE absent from the body and present with the Lord. What do you DO with these verses?

Please explain them. Explain why Paul was ready to go be with the Lord Jesus and he explained that to depart and be with him was FAR better.

Please explain what Paul meant. Please explain what Jesus meant.

gromitt82 · Aug 8, 2013, 03:28 AM

Dwashbur,

For the sake of debating the subject would you mind telling me who on earth can claim so categorically and definitely that Jesus never said this or that or that a certain phrase, word or paragraph was added or deleted by a scribe of some kind?

To the best of my knowledge in Jesus' time there were no tape recorders, which made quite difficult to record in some way what He was saying.

Whatever Jesus said or did was subject to the personal interpretation and explanation of those who were present. Those who bore witness of Jesus was saying, either orally transmitted to third parties what they had heard or remembered or wrote in Arameic, or eventually in old Greek, what they could remember by adding or omitting whatever they deemed it to be convenient.

The synoptic Gospels have a number of coincidences which may lead us to think they are rather accurate. But these are the Canonical (together with John's) accepted by Irenaeus of Lyons, in 185 AD and later on at the Council of Rome (4th century).

But they were not the only ones written and, therefore, they were those that would later on be translated into the Greek, Latin and modern languages and upon which the King James version is based.

But then, there are the Apocryphal (Infancy Gospels, Jewish/Christian Gospels, Gnostic Gospels, and a number of other Gospels and writings, all of which form the so called New Testament Apochrypha.

These writings have also been translated and should also be taken into consideration if we really want to depict Jesus' acurate profile.

As far as some of us are concerned the Canonical Gospels do clarify rather well Jesus' life so they are good enough for us. But we will never go to the extent of saying that "this is exactly what Jesus did or said" because we were not there and because there are, as I said, many other versions which may differ of what the 4 Evangelists wrote.

Gromitt82

freeman4 · Aug 8, 2013, 04:11 AM

He told the thief" today, I am on this cross and I am telling you at this time, that you will be with me in the Kingdom of God when that time comes. He just assured the thief that he, the thief would be in Gods Kingdom when it was established.

dwashbur · Aug 8, 2013, 08:03 AM

It's called textual criticism. Look it up; it's one of the most basic fields of study about the Bible, and especially about the New Testament. Go learn what manuscripts are, why we need to study them, and what the results are.

And please stop resurrecting 5-year-old threads.

As for your comment on the "today" thing, that is one of the worst approaches to Greek grammar I have seen yet. As if changing the English punctuation is going to alter the grammatical structure of the original? In the Greek text, "today" modifies "will be with me." If he had said "today I am on the cross" the thief would have replied "No duh, I can see that!" It's a meaningless statement that makes Jesus sound like an idiot, and it bears no resemblance to anything ever said in Koine Greek. Genuine Greek scholars have debunked this idea dozens of times in the past 50 years or so, because it's nonsense. It's wishful thinking. It's deliberate manipulation for the sake of a predefined doctrine. And it's wrong.

classyT · Aug 8, 2013, 08:23 AM

Grommit,

I am confused. If you do NOT see the bible as God's perfect word to us... why bother?

I am amazed at how accurate prophecy is in the bible. These 66 books were written by different people but the author was still the same. The Holy spirit. He inspired all of it.

Frankly if you can't know anything for sure, I'd say eat drink and be merry... who cares. At the Great White Throne I would plead that how could we know for sure any of it was true. I would also let God know there was no tapings of Christ.

The thing is... we could have actual tapes of Christ and his teaching and people wouldn't believe, They would argue his very words with his very voice. How do I know this? Because it takes FAITH to believe and there were plenty of people who witnessed miracle after miracle, teaching after teaching and walk away in unbelief.

The bible I believe by faith to be the written word of God and without error. Otherwise.. what is the point?

classyT · Aug 8, 2013, 08:30 AM

Freeman,

Read your bible. He didn't say any of that. He simple looked at the guy after he called him LORD and said... "TODAY you will be with ME in paradise" Today means TODAY.. clear as it can be and you would rather spin it to make your theology of slumber work. Well it doesn't work.

Explain the mount of transfiguration? How in the world did Moses and Elijah show up on the mount to talk to the Lord.

How did the witch of endor contact Samuel. Wasn't he suppose to be sawing logs? God is very much the God of the living. The only thing these dear saints are waiting for is to ge their new bodies. Now if you want to say their bodies are "asleep" FINE. But their soul and spirit are very much alive and the bible teaches just that.