[paraclete]

Personal responsibility is at the forefront of the debate. And obamacare doesnt do anything for most of that list.

But here is some more informal reading if you would like from the other side of the pond.

Guns save lives « Abundant Truth

Yes interesting reading but remember between the magna carta and today there was a civil war which changed the view a little, reality is only rich englishmen could afford a gun in those times and they didn't have the police force they have today. I have looked at the statistics and I see no excuse for the level of violence in the United States, if guns stopped violence the US would be the safest place in the world, it isn't, it is one of the most violent places in the world. When your 2nd amendment was written a fledgling nation needed an armed citizenry because they didn't possess much military capability, and of course, a few decades later you had a civil war fueled by the possession of firearms among the citizenry. All that war achieved was to get hunreds of thousands killed and maimed. It might have emancipated the slaves but it did little to improve their lot, it took a hundred years and an insurrection where guns weren't prominent for the nation to finally live up to the promise

You want abundant truth, it is found in rejecting populist rhetoric and protecting the innocent

[tomder55]

I have looked at the statistics and I see no excuse for the level of violence in the United States, if guns stopped violence the US would be the safest place in the world, it isn't, it is one of the most violent places in the world.

Well of course the real issue is how to deal with the violence in the country ;of which guns are but a relatively small factor in the equation. A couple of the President's directives deal with that ,and I applaud that .
America is only "one of the most violent places places in the world " when compared to a few other Western nations . There are MANY nations with higher murder rates per capita. What is notable in that is that most of the nations above the US in murder rates have strict gun control laws if not 100 % bans of guns.

[Tuttyd]

Well of course the real issue is how to deal with the violence in the country ;of which guns are but a relatively small factor in the equation. A couple of the President's directives deal with that ,and I applaud that .
America is only "one of the most violent places places in the world " when compared to a few other Western nations . There are MANY nations with higher murder rates per capita. What is notable in that is that most of the nations above the US in murder rates have strict gun control laws if not 100 % bans of guns.

Is that because most of the countries above you that suffer from higher gun related deaths are third world countries?

[paraclete]

America is only "one of the most violent places places in the world " when compared to a few other Western nations . There are MANY nations with higher murder rates per capita. What is notable in that is that most of the nations above the US in murder rates have strict gun control laws if not 100 % bans of guns.

Well Tom either you want to live in a civilised place or you want to live in a backward place ruled by violence. You seem to think this violence is a badge of honour as if it is a positive thing

[tomder55]

You seem to think this violence is a badge of honour as if it is a positive thing

umm what I said was "Well of course the real issue is how to deal with the violence in the country ;of which guns are but a relatively small factor in the equation. A couple of the President's directives deal with that ,and I applaud that ".

Does that translate different in Aussie ?

[tomder55]

Is that because most of the countries above you that suffer from higher gun related deaths are third world countries?

Does it matter ? Your side is trying to make the correlation between legal guns and violence. Almost all the countries with higher murder rates have on their books very strict gun laws.

[Tuttyd]

does it matter ? Your side is trying to make the correlation between legal guns and violence. Almost all the countries with higher murder rates have on their books very strict gun laws.

I would have though it did matter, but anyway, you obviously don't.

Third world countries have lots of things on their books, but are hardly every successful at implementing them. I guess this is one reason why they are still third world countries.

[speechlesstx]

speech refer above, your pride and ego is showing

You have a really odd way of interpreting things... typically you make no sense.

[NeedKarma]

You have a really odd way of interpreting things... typically you make no sense.

There you go 'clete, when they run out of arguments they attack you.

[tomder55]

I would have though it did matter, but anyway, you obviously don't.

Third world countries have lots of things on their books, but are hardly every successful at implementing them. I guess this is one reason why they are still third world countries.

Yes criminals in all countries typically break the laws on the books... including gun laws.

[speechlesstx]

There you go 'clete, when they run out of arguments they attack you.

You never make sense.

[speechlesstx]

yes criminals in all countries typically break the laws on the books .....including gun laws.

Just look at Chicago for instance.

[NeedKarma]

You never make sense.

We don't sink down to your level. :D

[excon]

Hello again,

It occurs to me that Republicans ABANDON long held positions when Obama starts liking them.. So, if we wanted right wingers on the CORRECT side of gun control, shouldn't Obama support legalizing bazookas?

excon

[Wondergirl]

Just look at Chicago for instance.

Hey! We're working on it! -- stripping people of their guns.

[tomder55]

Hello again,

It occurs to me that Republicans ABANDON long held positions when Obama starts liking them.. So, if we wanted right wingers on the CORRECT side of gun control, shouldn't Obama support legalizing bazookas?

excon

Or maybe Obama can tell his AG to stop handing assault rifles to drug lords in Mexico, 220 people killed with them... Stop the madness!!

[talaniman]

or maybe Obama can tell his AG to stop handing assault rifles to drug lords in Mexico, 220 people killed with them... Stop the madness!!

The NRA and GOP's Fast and Furious Lies | The Nation

An e-mail from the head of the criminal division for the Arizona District US Attorney's office makes clear that the Fast and Furious prosecutors believed that it was legal for a straw purchaser to buy the guns and then transfer them to others, so long as those people were not legally prohibited from possessing firearms. The Republicans have asserted the opposite—that if the straw purchasers certified in their paperwork that they were the true buyers of the gun, but then transferred it after the purchase, they were lying and should have been prosecuted. But the courts in Arizona have disagreed, and thus, so did the prosecutors. Agents protested these decisions repeatedly, but of course were required to abide by the prosecutors' legal judgments. The result: a lot of guns wound up in Mexico, and two were found near the Arizona-Mexico border, where an elite US border patrol agent, Brian Terry, was gunned down.

So of course you again holler about a president who represents your greatest fears, minority with authority, and a "socialist", and head of the government you hate, yet completely ignore what mayors, and law enforcement have been saying for decades in our cities. At the same time you side with loony right wing groups who embrace violent "taking back their country" and racial isolation ideology and honor them as responsible tax paying citizens.

And you wonder why there is a war on you guys?? DUH!!

[tomder55]

Tal you are foaming at the mouth . You make a lot of false allegations against me
1. I do not fear minorities with authority
2.I do not hate my government .
3.I do not support violent take back of the country
4.I do not embrace "loony right wing groups "
5.I do not believe in racial isolation
How you could fit so many slanders in a single paragraph is beyond me.


No I'm not finished . We have brought up a number of times the violence in Chicago... where the death toll in Connecticut is a weekly event . Let me ask you this ? Where were the children from Chi town on the President's podium ? Do you think any gun laws aimed at legal gun owners will change that ? Then YOU are the nut .

[talaniman]

That's not what he said, its not about the legal gun owners, it was about not making guns available for the illegal crazy ones who get them from the legal ones. I heard him!

If you are not a loony right wing extremist, I apologize, my mistake, don't take it personally. As I have said before to you and Speech, you sure sound like one and obviously I can't tell the difference. Or maybe they sound like you trying to fool us progressives.

I don't know. Seems to me if you are not for all those things I listed, and are not a loony rightie, then there should be points of agreement somewhere. You have acknowledged to your credit that some of the presidents ideas he put forth were not to bad.

There's hope.

[Wondergirl]

Can we all agree that all firearms sales should involve a background check and a paper trail?