[paraclete]

Another straw man, you have no real facts in this debate, Tom, you are on the wrong side of history

[talaniman]

tal
I assure you the best you will get is new standardized registration requirements ,and perhaps restrictions on magazine sizes ,or restrictions on mail order ammo purchases....perhaps even restrictions on the so called gun show exceptions.

That would be a step in the right direction.

And which ones would those be?

Whatever is deemed illegal under federal law. We had a ban before, it took 10 years to get it, and it expired 10 years later. Now its on the table again. The real debate for me is do citizens have the right to bear the same arms as the official Army of the US, or the regulated militia we now call the police. Both have extensive and ongoing training and practice, and answerable and accountable to higher authority for their actions.

Should not a citizen be as accountable, or groups of citizens who deem themselves a militia? Who are they accountable too? With the free exercise of rights is there no responsibility?

We have already seen where a troubled person can criminally get a legal weapon and kill not only the legal owner, but 26 more kids and adults. If you have troubled people in your family, should you have the right to bear arms?

If assault rifles and the high ammo clips were banned for all, how many people would have been saved? For sure we know the some kids at Newtown would have escaped alive.

[tomder55]

We had a ban before, it took 10 years to get it, and it expired 10 years later.

And yet we had a number of mass murders in that time ,including Columbine.

With the free exercise of rights is there no responsibility?

yes ,and the law abiding citizens already exercise such responsibility .

[talaniman]

TOM,
And yet we had a number of mass murders in that time ,including Columbine.

The Assault Weapons Ban: Did It Curtail Mass Shootings? — The Century Foundation

What is an undeniable truth is that we have seen an incredible uptick of mass shootings since the ban expired on September 14, 2004. To be fair, it also is a small sample size, and 2012 was an exceptionally tragic year, but the fact remains that the number of shootings has gone up over 200 percent since the ban expired.

yes ,and the law abiding citizens already exercise such responsibility

There are enough law abiding citizens taking short cuts and driving through huge loopholes to make it a problem to be addressed, as you have pointed out gun shows, and I add transporting guns from weak gun law states to stronger ones.

I have said earlier I can go with more regulated militias like police, and less unregulated ones like a band of law abiding citizens with good intentions, and a few skills, and looking to wage ARMED war against the government.

I may be wrong but I believe that's a fringe idea, that makes me very uncomfortable. Some of our law abiding citizens are crazy, and not as responsible as they should be. And citizens/vigilantes have killed people.

[cdad]

The Assault Weapons Ban: Did It Curtail Mass Shootings? — The Century Foundation





There are enough law abiding citizens taking short cuts and driving thru huge loopholes to make it a problem to be addressed, as you have pointed out gun shows, and I add transporting guns from weak gun law states to stronger ones.

I have said earlier I can go with more regulated militias like police, and less unregulated ones like a band of law abiding citizens with good intentions, and a few skills, and looking to wage ARMED war against the government.

I may be wrong but I believe thats a fringe idea, that makes me very uncomfortable. Some of our law abiding citizens are crazy, and not as responsible as they should be. And citizens/vigilantes have killed people.

Are we really looking at a genuine uptick or are we looking into the mirror of what society has become? Today most people no matter who they are seem to be under more stress from outside influences then they have in modern times. Much of it is driven by what we see and hear around us. Violent video games have desensitized an entire group of children to the reality of the world around us. Im not talking about space invaders or other games where they are fantasy based but those that appear as real life. The characters look real and the sounds are real and it crosses a line that we may not return from. I have seen things drastically change over my lifetime as far as true respect for others and with the internet being so prevalent it has caused fundemental changes in attitudes. Before when you did encounter a bully then at least when you went home it ended for the day. Now we have online bullying and stalking. Also we have a much greater and widespread use of drugs that alter the minds and are being given out like M&M's. There seems to be no problems that a pill can't cure. We have laws like HIPPA that prevent doctors from reporting as they might when a threat may be imminent. Where do we start to draw the lines?

[excon]

Hello again,

You and I know that an assault rifle, mechanically, is identical to an ordinary semi automatic hunting rifle.. But, some drug crazed want to be killer may NOT know that, and he MIGHT be dissuaded from carrying out his plan IF he can't get one...

Look. We're not going to STOP the mayhem from continuing... But, if we can reduce it, even incrementally, then we should.

Since an assault weapons ban is only a ban on LOOKS, gun loving America doesn't lose a thing except cosmetics. I don't think REAL gun lovers care much about that. Do YOU need a flash suppressor on your hunting rifle?

excon

[talaniman]

One thing for sure, no matter what we invent some will find ways around it, and that includes the law, and unless you stay ahead of the bad guys, or just the crazy ones, then they will be the ones driving the situation, not you, the law, or common sense.

So why is our society so prone to disasters more than other nations that have the same videos and pills and guns? Oh wait, they don't have the same guns as we do, do they?

Could we be so carried away with our rights and abandoned good old common sense? Maybe math and science are NOT the only subjects we have started to fall behind the rest of the world in. Profits over people, I have said that before. Who profits by the mass shootings and culture of violence in our society?

Just asking.

[NeedKarma]

Profits over people, I have said that before.

Not only corporations but the citizens value profit (being perceived as wealthy) over people (relationships with family/friends/neighbours). When they cannot achieve that ultimate materialistic goal then the dysfunctions start to appear. Neglected children, lowered value in human relationships, etc.

[tomder55]

Columbine mass-killer Eric Harris was taking Luvox ,an antidepressant drug Luvox manufacturer Solvay Pharmaceuticals concedes that during short term controlled clinical trials, 4 percent of youth taking Luvox developed mania, a dangerous and violence prone mental derangement characterized by extreme excitement and delusion.

Patrick Purdy went on a schoolyard shooting rampage in Stockton, Calif. in 1989, which became the catalyst for the original legislative frenzy to ban “semiautomatic assault weapons”. Purdy murdered five children and wounded 30. He was on Amitriptyline, an antidepressant, and Thorazine.

Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents in 1998 and the next day went to his school, Thurston High in Springfield, Ore. and opened fire on his classmates, killing two and wounding 22 others. He was on both Prozac and Ritalin.

In 1988, 31-year-old Laurie Dann went on a shooting rampage in a second-grade classroom in Winnetka, Ill. killing one child and wounding six. She was on Anafranil and Lithium.

In Paducah, Ky. in late 1997, 14-year-old Michael Carneal, son of a prominent attorney, traveled to Heath High School and started shooting students in a prayer meeting taking place in the school's lobby, killing three and leaving another paralyzed. Carneal was on Ritalin.

2005, 16-year-old Jeff Weise, living on Minnesota's Red Lake Indian Reservation, shot and killed nine people and wounded five others before killing himself. Weise was taking Prozac.

47-year-old Joseph T. Wesbecker, just a month after he began taking Prozac in 1989, shot 20 workers at Standard Gravure Corp. in Louisville, Ky. killing nine.

Kurt Danysh, 18, shot his own father to death in 1996, a little more than two weeks after starting on Prozac. Danysh said “I didn't realize I did it until after it was done,” “This might sound weird, but it felt like I had no control of what I was doing, like I was left there just holding a gun.”

John Hinckley, age 25, took four Valium two hours before shooting President Reagan in 1981 Hinckley also seriously wounded press secretary James Brady,and wounded Secret Service agent Timothy McCarthy and policeman Thomas Delahanty

Andrea Yatesdrowned all five of her children in a bathtub.She claimed inner voices commanded her to kill her children.She had been taking the antidepressant Effexor.
2005 Effexor manufacturer Wyeth Pharmaceuticals added “homicidal ideation” to the drug's list of “rare adverse events."

12-year-old Christopher Pittman, shot and killed both his grandparents, and burned down their South Carolina home, where he had lived with them. He said “When I was lying in my bed that night ,I couldn't sleep because my voice in my head kept echoing through my mind telling me to kill them.” Christopher had been angry with his grandfather, who had disciplined him earlier that day for hurting another student during a fight on the school bus. ”I got up, got the gun, and I went upstairs and I pulled the trigger . Through the whole thing, it was like watching your favorite TV show. You know what is going to happen, but you can't do anything to stop it.”Pittman's lawyers argued that he had been a victim of “involuntary intoxication,” since his doctors had him taking the antidepressants Paxil and Zoloft just prior to the murders.

Virginia Tech murderer of 32 people, Cho Seung-Hui, had been taking psychiatric drugs.
New York Slimes reported, “officials said prescription medications related to the treatment of psychological problems had been found among Mr. Cho's effects,” His roommate, Joseph Aust, told the Richmond Times-Dispatch that Cho's routine each morning had included taking prescription drugs.

60-year-old Donald Schnell murdered his wife, daughter and granddaughter in a fit of rage shortly after starting on Paxil. GlaxoSmithKline was ordered to pay $6.4 million to the family .

Eli Lilly fought scores of legal claims against Prozac in this way, settling for cash before the complaint could go to court while stipulating that the settlement remain secret... and then claiming it had never lost a Prozac lawsuit.

So what meds was Lanza on ? We know he was being treated for mental issues ;and we know that he went over the edge when he found out his mom's plans to have him committed .Was he on meds ? Had he quit taking them ?

This issue ,which I believe is at the heart of many of these mass killings has been swept under the rug in our rush to knee jerk and demagogue about gun control.

[Wondergirl]

Were all of these mass murderers taking their meds correctly, at the right times of day and at the correct dosages?

I had a bipolar grandmother and had POA for her bipolar son (my uncle). I've had clients with OCD or who were bipolar or had AHDH et al. They knocked themselves out looking for reasons not to take their meds. Compliant is not something that mentally ill people want to be.

[tomder55]

I have not looked into that too closely yet. But ,I know that other factors could include withdrawal ,improper prescription ,and improper dosage levels . When you look at the lit . There is more information on suicidal tendencies .I suspect the Pharmaceutical Companies would be reluctant to admit to homicidal side effects.

[Wondergirl]

I suspect the Pharmaceutical Companies would be reluctant to admit to homicidal side effects.

Those are written into side effects. Heck, just listen to the pharma TV ads! The cure is worse than the disease.

Dosages have to be closely monitored and adjusted from time to time. That may not be done, depending on a patient's self report. In the days of mental institutions, Nurse Ratched could watch a patient take his meds and make sure he swallowed the pill. No one does that any longer. The mentally ill are their own caretakers. And now they too have rights.

[paraclete]

Tom you have put forward a very good case to abrogate the Constitutional right of the medicated to own or possess weapons of any kind. To enforce it so they are denied access you will have to remove the right of family members in the same household to own or possess weapons. You therefore have a great difficulty because now you need a medical register linked to a gun register and regulation to enforce it. You see that this situation wasn't anticipated by your all seeing founders, and so you need another amendment. I wonder if Joe will recommend that as part of his suite of measures. It would be easier to recind the second amendment

[tomder55]

You see that this situation wasn't anticipated by your all seeing founders

Yeah ,they didn't anticipate the wussification of the nation . A nation that handcuffs itself with political correctness which results in the mentally ill being denied care .

[paraclete]

yeah ,they didn't anticipate the wussification of the nation . A nation that handcuffs itself with political correctness which results in the mentally ill being denied care .

I agree regarding the wussification of the nation but it is a wassification to deal with real issues not manufactured ones. The mentally ill represent a small proportion of the population but a high percentage of offenders in various crimes, that you fail to care for them and provide appropriate accommodation, etc, is shamefull but an indication of the me society which you have become. There are real issues you are not dealing with mental illness, drugs, imprisonment, but I notice one thing, the prison population aren't to blame for recent massacres, seriously; you are locking up the wrong people, you need to get the thought police in full operation so you can single out these potential offenders. Their profiles are known, and you can take a leaf out of Hitler's book and eliminate the threat, that way you can keep your guns in safety knowing you are free from potential offenders

Tom. It is a wuss nation that feels it has to defend itsself from imaginary threats by arming itself to the teeth.

[Wondergirl]

yeah ,they didn't anticipate the wussification of the nation . A nation that handcuffs itself with political correctness which results in the mentally ill being denied care .

They didn't plan for well-regulated militias to be part of personal pleasure, nor did they understand or even know about mental illness

[Wondergirl]

Let's take Adam Lanza and use him as an example. What would have been the best case scenario for him as per his mental illness?

[tomder55]

Had his mom succeeded in institutionalizing him then he would've gotten proper monitored care ;and the children of Sandy Hook would be alive.

[paraclete]

His mother was a nut who fed his paranoia, she should have been charged as an accessory, and rotted in prison, but unfortunately she too was a victim

[tomder55]

Yeah let's regulate thoughts. Good idea.